Oral History with Herman Goldstein (2016-17)

University of Wisconsin Law School Library
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00:00:00 - Family background and education

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Partial Transcript: Good morning, today is October 26th, 2016. This is the first of a series of oral history interviews with Herman Goldstein.

Segment Synopsis: Hermann Goldstein (HG) begins discussing his family. He was born in New London, Connecticut. His mother was from Lithuania and his father was from an area just north of Poland. His grandparents lived just around the corner. He had a brother and a sister. He attended school in New London, from elementary through high school. The high schools were divided by gender and by interests (e.g., college prep vs. tech school). HG attended Buckley, a boys’ college prep school.

HG was a product of the depression; his father worked as a farmer and raised tobacco in Connecticut. Then he took an opportunity to pasteurize milk, shortly after the process had been introduced. He was a part owner of a dairy but lost ownership to the depression. Thereafter he delivered milk. He was very committed to seeing his kids get an adequate education.

HG’s mother was the intellectual of the family, coming from a rabbinic family that highly valued education. She enrolled in many night school programs after moving to the U.S., wanting to assimilate herself and learn the English language. She instilled in HG deep academic values.

HG’s brother was four years ahead of him. HG's brother was valedictorian of his high school class and attended the University of Connecticut. HG learned a lot about college life from his brother, who studied sociology with a focus on demography; later he got a PhD in demography at the University of Pennsylvania and joined the faculty at Brown University.

HG was involved in several high school activities, including drama productions as a stage manager. He became business manager for the high school yearbook.

HG had great academic ambitions but also kept in mind financial obstacles. He knew he would likely attend a state college but applied to a couple Ivy League schools anyway. Eventually he matriculated at the University of Connecticut. HG got to know the school through his brother. He recalls falling asleep at night to the sound of his brother discussing his academics with their mother. This inspired HG further.

Keywords: Army; Brown University; Buckley High School; Great Depression; Hartford, Connecticut; Lithuania; Long Island; Navy; New London, Connecticut; New York; Poland; University of Connecticut; University of Pennsylvania; Yale University

00:16:22 - Further education

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Partial Transcript: So, uh, so then before we get you to college

Segment Synopsis: HG recalls his childhood as a very industrious one, always trying to stay ahead. He was very impressed by his father’s work ethic. He appreciates his parents exposing their kids to education and culture. They arranged trips to Washington, D.C, New York City, and areas in New England. They worked very hard to support their children.

In college at the University of Connecticut, HG had his first opportunity to live away from home. He made many social connections, including fraternities. He visited his parent about once a month, given they lived nearby. The cultural value that his Jewish family placed on education played a large role in directing HG’s future. He learned to appreciate his opportunities without becoming financially unrealistic. Professional opportunities were limited for Jewish boys.

HG wanted to build on his propensity for management but chose not to attend business school. He became very interested in local and state government administration. He did a one-on-one course writing a thesis about the redevelopment of a local beach after a hurricane. He took many courses in government administration, furthering his interest in it beyond college. He applied successfully to a master’s program in state administration at the Wharton School of Business of the University of Pennsylvania, earning a scholarship to pay tuition. HG’s brother had begun a PhD program at U of Penn by this time.

Keywords: Hudson River; New England; New York City; Syracuse University; University of Pennsylvania; Wharton School

00:28:06 - College and culture shock

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Partial Transcript: Uh, so you said in high school that you were far more interested in the extracurriculars than the academics.

Segment Synopsis: Though HG was preoccupied with extracurricular matters in high school, he did find interest in courses in history, political science, and English. In college, these interests carried on through political theory and government administration.

HG and his peers had internships in various departments of the city government. They attended classes on public administration in the afternoon. Classes often extended well into the evening. HG was assigned to the police department, where he explored the relationship between management and employees. He was assigned to a precinct overseen by Frank Rizzo, an officer who had gained a tough reputation.

HG spent time with the officers on duty, observing the interaction between their supervisors and them. During this internship, HG found there was a very adversary rapport between cops and citizens. He recalls a lot of hostility during encounters he observed during his internship. This was a different world for HG, who had had no prior presence in minority or low-income communities.

Keywords: Frank Rizzo; Philadelphia

00:35:55 - City internship

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Partial Transcript: I should, I should, back up here for a moment.

Segment Synopsis: HG pauses to recall his childhood living conditions. He lived in a three-level flat in a very diverse community of immigrants. An Italian family and an Irish family, occupied the other levels. They lived as a large family, curious about each other’s traditions and cuisines. HG lived on Grand Street; his family was the only Jewish one on that street. This living situation influenced HG’s life greatly. The encounters in Philadelphia served as a culture shock.

The last part of HG’s educational program was a full-time internship, training people to become city managers aiming to improve local government. Dr. Steven Sweeney led the institute’s internship program. Many students went off to serve as city managers in various U.S. cities. They had had a lot of exposure to various aspects of the job. HG recalls an episode when he was assigned to Portland, Maine, which had gained a reputation for its good management. Dr. Sweeney questioned whether the area would accept a Jewish student. This hung things up for about a month; thereafter they decided to go ahead. HG was not apprehensive about it; he gained invaluable experience. He was assigned to a municipal service that decided rubbish collection logistics.

HG initially felt isolated but quickly became comfortable with his internship. The city manager recommended that HG be hired as an administrative assistant for $3600 per year. This caused a lot of grief among other employees, who thought it was unfair that such a new face be given such an advanced position. No less, the city council approved HG’s hiring. He developed a wonderful relationship with the council, learning about legal operations and urban redevelopment. He attended city council meetings, observing the many public policy debates.

Portland’s biggest weakness was its police department. HG reported on the Portland Police Department to the city manager, finding many problems with the department’s operations. The city manager decided to hire a consultant, O.W. Wilson, dean of the school of criminology at the University of California, to identify and assess the problems. HG was assigned to gather data about the police department, working under Wilson nearly full-time over several months. Wilson wrote his report on the department with recommendations for improvement. The chief resigned and was quickly replaced by a new chief who began to implement the recommendations.

HG attempted to join the military during the Korean War but was turned down due to his high blood pressure. He did not know what to do with himself until Portland city management contacted him to return to work there. Soon thereafter, O.W. Wilson, who had been recently appointed as a national consultant on criminal justice in Chicago, requested that HG join him to work there. HG accepted.

Keywords: Chicago; Dr. Steven Sweeney; Portland, Maine; University of California

00:55:26 - Field study of U.S. law enforcement I

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Partial Transcript: Okay, uh, today is November 2nd, 2016. This is the second interview with Herman Goldstein.

Segment Synopsis: HG resumes discussing the project for which O. W. Wilson hired him. He knew little about it initially, except that his base would be in Chicago. The project, dubbed the American Bar Foundation Study of Criminal Justice in the United States, focused on the administration of criminal procedures. He was housed in the new headquarters of the American Bar Association at the University of Chicago. The Ford Foundation sponsored the survey. A committee, which included several justices of the U.S. Supreme Court, prepared a guide for the study that became known as “the little green book.”

The primary objective was to survey the criminal justice system in each state, an objective that, in hindsight, was rather naïve. The researchers created teams to focus on different aspects of the system, including the police, prosecution, the courts, probation, corrections, incarceration, and parole. Each team observed the dynamics of one of these different aspects. HG served on a team observing the police in numerous jurisdictions, asking a regular set of logistical questions about such things as the number of officers on duty, what they do, what tools they use, and how they organize themselves. Frank Remington became involved in the project when he was appointed as its director of field research. Lloyd Ohlin, headquartered in University of Chicago’s sociology department, became the director of research.

HG attended orientation and then went to Wisconsin to begin his project research. By this time, the project had obtained support from several unions and police organizations, to many of the researchers’ surprise. One of HG’s team’s preliminary questions was how the officers operated in the field—how they tended to handle situations on the clock. HG was on the first field team that went to Milwaukee, under pressure to collect as much data as possible. He was not sure exactly how much data he could and should acquire, but he knew that his first priority was to record police activity and to ask, “What’s hot?”, i.e., what are the officers’ immediate duties. His team carried a Dicta phone to record conversations with the officers, which would then be transcribed and reviewed at later stages in the project. They produced reports that were all typewritten; several of them are available at the UW Law School Library. HG has still sets of files to deposit into the library’s collection. [Note that the study reports were transferred to the Wisconsin Historical Society for improved preservation and access. See hyperlink below.]

Keywords: American Bar Association; American Bar Foundation; Ben Matthews; Chicago, IL; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; Fred Imbel; Lloyd Ohlin; Milwaukee, WI; O.W. Wilson; Sandford Bates; UW Law School Library; University of Chicago

Subjects: Criminal justice; Policing

01:13:52 - Field study of U.S. law enforcement II

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Partial Transcript: And I just took a picture, but just to describe it, this is a thick, uh, thick set of paper.

Segment Synopsis: HG took copious notes while in the field, aiming to abstract from them patterns in police behavior. Logistical checklists were largely irrelevant to Remington and Ohlin’s primary research concerns. They spent a great deal of time together while they studied in Milwaukee. Ohlin and Remington then decided to survey other parts of Wisconsin, including Wauwatosa, Neillsville, and Arlen, with a general goal of finding ethnographic patterns. They data they collected was nothing like what they initially expected to observe of the police force. Policing was very informal, especially in small, rural jurisdictions. While in Ashland, HG observed a notable amount of prostitution, which the officers handled in a surprisingly informal manner.

Remington and Ohlin were always very excited by opportunities to observe the decision-making process in real time. They extended their study to Michigan and Kansas; HG’s team went to the former. These two states were selected due to prior political relationships with their police departments. Detroit attracted them as well, providing for empirical research in a large metropolitan area. They headed to tougher areas of the city, including the 13th precinct, where HG worked. He accompanied police on duty there, coming to conclusions that were far removed from what he initially expected. Thus, the studies were very revealing.

The notion that police investigate, arrest, and then prosecute in a very formal, structured manner was refuted by observations that they displayed a lack of self-discipline. For example, HG was introduced to a police unit informally known as the “whore squad,” responsible for regular prostitute arrests. The unit handled the matter very lackadaisically, talking to the women on a first-name basis and letting them do their work before arresting and detaining them for the evening (usually for disorderly conduct). None of them ever went to court because they were always casually released the following morning. Thus, HG concluded that the policing system was very sloppy and often used for personal or political harassment rather than communal prosecution.

HG also discovered that only a very small subset of criminal cases went all the way to trial; most were dismissed or ended with a plea bargain. In addition, HG found that arrests were used for a variety of purposes, not just to initiate prosecution: investigation, harassment, intimidation, and detainment were among the other purposes. This was the first time a formal study of policing had been conducted in the United States. A man named Wesley from University of Chicago conducted a similar study of an obscure government department in Gary, Indiana, but not on as large a scale as the study by HG and his colleagues.

Keywords: Ashland, WI; Bruce F. Beilfuss; Detroit; Eau Claire, WI; Hurley, WI; Kansas; Michigan; Milwaukee; Neillsville, WI; Sanford Bates; Wauwatosa; Wauwatosa, WI; Wisconsin

01:35:20 - Field study of U.S. law enforcement III

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Partial Transcript: So Herman, I want to, uh, I still have a bit of time.

Segment Synopsis: HG resumes discussing the American Bar Foundation study. The results had a profound effect on criminal studies, especially in Wisconsin. The group produced an interim summary of their study, called the “pilot project report,” that described police operations as observed on the ground. Copies were distributed to about twenty people, who had to agree not to reveal anything from the report. Academics were taken aback by the data, and used it to create a law seminar at UW. Frank Remington and Lloyd Ohlin participated in the seminar, along with colleagues from law schools and other departments across the country. They realized this was a pioneering study in criminology.

Then, graduate students of Remington’s become involved, including Wayne LaFave, who went on to become a renown criminal law scholar, publishing a book entitled Arrest: The Decision to Take a Suspect Into Custody, which interpreted the results of HG’s study. He further wrote and published a multi-volume text on search and seizure law. Donald Newman, a scholar of social work at UW, had a part-time appointment with the law school and drew from the study to publish work about criminal law. Especially interesting to scholars was the way in which law enforcement operated in large urban areas, as indicated by data collected in Detroit. Sam Walker, from the University of Nebraska, stated that HG’s study took our initial understanding of law enforcement and turned it on its head. The project’s results were well received by the legal community.

Keywords: American Bar Foundation; Chicago, IL; Detroit; Don McIntyre; Donald Newman; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; Kansas; Lloyd Olen; Marvin Wolfgang; O.W. Wilson; Sam Walker; Supreme Court of the United States; UW-Madison, WI; University of Illinois; University of Nebraska; Wayne LaFave

Subjects: Criminal justice; Policing

01:45:50 - Initial work after the field study

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Partial Transcript: Alright, uh, today is November 23rd, 2016.

Segment Synopsis: HG describes his activities immediately following the law enforcement study. HG recalls wrapping up the project, parting ways with colleagues. His mother died about this time. Funding for the Chicago-based project dried up after about two and a half years. HG thus sought work elsewhere, eventually deciding to take a temporary job in Connecticut to be close to his father. He worked in local government for about a year, learning about local public policy but finding the job unchallenging. He then found a job in Public Administration Service, an organization providing public officials with assistance in various areas, including organization, management, and human resources. O.W. Wilson had served the organization as a policing consultant. HG traveled to Ohio, Georgia, and other states, studying governmental administration. He occasionally took leave to participate in UW seminars sponsored by Frank Remington.

HG recalls Joe Goldstein (no familial relation to HG), a professor at Yale Law School, writing an article on police discretion. He asked HG to co-author it but HG refused because of intellectual disagreement. Joe Goldstein argued that police discretion was too broad and needed narrower definition; HG adamantly disagreed, contending that police discretion is essential and needs to be refined, not limited.

HG learned about the Chicago Police Department and its poor reputation while he worked on the field study. He learned of the Summerdale Scandal, which involved officers on duty stealing large amounts of freshly carved meat from freezers, placing it in their squad cars, and taking it home. The Chicago Tribune exposed this scandal, elucidating the police’s abuse of power. Chicago Mayor Daley thus sought a new commissioner for the city, ultimately selecting O.W. Wilson. The selection committee had deliberated for several weeks. The decision was announced in the newspaper; the next day, Wilson asked HG to work as his assistant. HG was taken aback by the request, unsure that Wilson knew what he was getting into by taking the job.

Chicago had become a laughingstock in the criminal justice world, and the Chicago police force comprised about 12,000 officers, dwarfing Wilson’s last police staff in Wichita, Kansas. Nonetheless, Wilson was excited by the opportunity. Wilson’s contract assured him pay if he were to leave California for three years. Moreover, the mayor assured Wilson no interference in his job, including the selection of personnel. Such liberty was very uncommon for urban superintendence.

Keywords: American Bar Association; American Bar Foundation; Chicago, IL; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; Georgia; Hartford, Connecticut; Joe Goldstein; O.W. Wilson; Ohio; Richard Daley; Russell Sage Foundation; Summerdale Scandal; University of Chicago

Subjects: Criminal justice; Policing

02:04:25 - Chicago Mayor Daley's power

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Partial Transcript: Can I jump in here just to say

Segment Synopsis: HG had several meetings with Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley. He was very impressed with Daley’s commitment. He found in him a strong religious spirit that dictated his contract with the people of Chicago. When HG learned of the nature of Daley’s power and possible corruption, he was surprised to find how swiftly and easily Daley could sway his colleagues and get things done. Daley cooperated with law enforcement. A state attorney challenged Daley’s power to choose the police commissioner was void since Wilson did not technically qualify (he had not resided in the area long enough). Daley instructed his city attorney work out the problem, resulting in a piece of legislation that qualified Wilson. It established that the head of the police department was no longer the commissioner but the police board, which hired a superintendent, namely, Wilson. This occurred in April of 1960, when Wilson asked HG to join the police department.

Keywords: American Bar Foundation; Chicago; O. W. Wilson; Richard J. Daley

02:11:11 - Reforming the Chicago Police Department

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Partial Transcript: I, uh, all that occurred in April, 1960.

Segment Synopsis: HG found that the police department was out of control. The captains were all retired but brought back by the commissioner. Within weeks, the superintendent dismissed all of them. O. W. Wilson announced he would be around for at least three years. They conducted interviews to fill these slots. Wison gave a speech to the entire police department, announcing his new policies to respect civil rights and liberties. Over a thousand members of the department resigned within the first year. This was a sign to Wilson that his message was getting across, weeding out corrupt employees. For the following three years, HG focused on cleaning and restructuring the police department. He discovered there were many people on the payroll whom he could not find; thus, he contracted out to consultants to find these alleged employees. They eventually found all of them and returned them to regular work, unless they chose to retire.

HG was very nervous executing some of these tasks. The vehicular fleet was very poor—some officers used their own vehicles instead of cop cars because they were in such poor shape. Wilson told HG to order five hundred cars. This intimidated HG, since he was not accustomed to working on such a large scale. HG found that Mayor Daley had already told all purchasing agents to comply with Wilson’s orders, so he had little problem fulfilling the orders. They created a unit specifically to investigate internal corruption. They also created an undercover unit to bust officers who negotiated traffic tickets with citizens (who often bribed their way out of them). The police union was very weak and its leader undercut Wilson’s goals. The department was transformed into a more responsive unit. The units moved to newer, better buildings.

Keywords: Chicago; O. W. Wilson; Richard Daley

02:26:49 - Results of Chicago Police Department reform

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Partial Transcript: Now, to move on, quickly,

Segment Synopsis: Wilson was committed to organizational change, seeking to restructure the police. HG had the Bar Foundation study in the back of his mind, recalling the many interactions between police and citizens that he witnessed. One measure taken to restructure the police force was to encourage officers to look proud and professional. Each district held a ceremony for the best-dressed officer of the month. HG was skeptical whether such re-structuring would solve any real problems. Legislation restricted use of the blue light now indicative of police exclusively to the department.

HG was concerned about police-citizen interaction on matters beyond presentation. He spent many hours in the field, visiting police departments and accompanying officers on the job. He did work like that he did during the American Bar Foundation study. HG never lost enthusiasm assisting Wilson with the structural changes, since he believed that such changes must precede the most substantive problems he wanted to address. HG greatly appreciated getting time to work with the officers, especially since he was only 27 years old at the time. He recalls attending roll calls where officers initially were hostile to his presence; they insisted there was no need for improvement, especially from an outsider, but relations improved with time.

Keywords: American Bar Foundation

02:34:59 - Discovering racism in police hiring

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Partial Transcript: Now, having done that.

Segment Synopsis: HG makes a distinction between structural and substantive changes in the Chicago police department; one of the latter was the aim for greater demographic diversity. They found a disproportionate assignment of officers to different districts: fewer officers were assigned to districts in need of more help—poorer areas with greater minority populations. They reassigned officers more proportionally, especially to poorer, minority communities. Shortly after the reassignment, members of those formerly shorthanded communities found they were able to get the help of law enforcement much more quickly. This was a powerful indicator for HG and his colleagues.

HG discovered that an extraordinary number of police applicants were rejected from the outset, including a disproportionate number of blacks. He looked into the matter and found the reason to be that they had flat feet. This did not convince HG, who researched the claim and found little to support it; moreover, he discovered that the physicians conducting the evaluations were on the police department’s payroll. HG finds this ironic since an old nickname for police was “flatfoot.” HG concluded it was purely a prejudiced act and removed that criterion from the physical exam. There were very few black members in supervisory positions. They re-designed the selection process to be sure that it was done honestly, e.g., applicants’ physical tests were scored the moment the applicants finished them

HG recalls the Chicago police inviting Martin Luther King, Jr. to talk to the command staff about racial injustices in political communities. HG has photos of Wilson meeting with King. At a subsequent meeting, MLK announced that O.W. Wilson’s arrival in Chicago was the “greatest thing that happened to the city since Lake Michigan.” The Wilson administration addressed many racial issues in the police force. HG himself met MLK; he was overwhelmed by him but found him very approachable and cooperative. This was before MLK reached a national stature.

Keywords: Chicago; Martin Luther King, Jr.; O.W. Wilson

02:45:41 - Entering academia

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Partial Transcript: Good morning. Uh, today is December 7th, 2016, the 75th anniversary of Pearl Harbor.

Segment Synopsis: After three years, O.W. Wilson and HG had used up their project funding. HG feared that once Wilson left Chicago, the police department would return to business as usual unless its administration fell under another independent entity. HG himself was not sure exactly what he wanted to do next in his career: perhaps government administration, city management, or consulting. However, at this time, he grew more interested in research, despite initially believing he did not fit academia. He was not sure how well he would relate to colleagues, though he had already developed relationships with faculty at the University of Chicago.

James Q. Wilson, HG recalls, began his policing career in academia, learning about government management; he went on to become a major scholar in policing. HG worked with Al Reese on the ethnography of policing in Chicago. Joe Goldstein, a professor at Yale, also conducted studies in ethnography, focusing on the police exercise of discretion and arguing that it should be minimized. HG notes that people tend to confuse his name with Joe Goldstein’s, ironically attributing to each the wrong (and diametrically opposed) scholarship; this can pose a humorous problem for citations. Frank Allen, at the University of Chicago Law School, who ideologically agreed with HG, gave a talk to provide HG with a platform on which to clarify his position on police discretion. This marked the beginning of HG’s academic career.

Willard Hurst wrote a letter to HG in December of 1963, telling HG of Frank Remington’s effort to bring him to UW Madison. Hurst expressed interest in extending the law school’s research to police operations. This letter influenced HG’s academic work henceforth, exploring police administration and policy. Despite HG’s lack of a PhD or JD, UW Law invited him to join their faculty; this invitation, HG believes, reflected a hallmark of the University of Wisconsin, hiring people with nontraditional credentials.

Keywords: Chicago; Frank Remington; Joe Goldstein; O.W. Wilson; University of Michigan; University of Wisconsin; Willard Hurst; Yale

03:05:58 - Kennedy assassination / Observations on security issues

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Partial Transcript: So, I moved to Wiscon--to Madison in August of 1964.

Segment Synopsis: Frank Remington sought funding for research for Willard Hurst, HG, and himself after finding overlap between their interests. He successfully applied for a grant from the Ford Foundation. HG had a lot of discretion in using the money toward his effort to teach about policing and related matters. Troy Reeves, the interviewer, then interjects to inquire about HG’s experience of the Kennedy assassination.

HG recalls the Kennedy assassination. He shared in the horror and shock of his death. For HG, however, it was especially tragic since he had been exposed to several of the issues related to the president’s security. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy had been scheduled to attend a football game at Soldiers Field. The cost and sheer volume of security startled O.W. Wilson; the apparent fact that the security did not suffice worried him further. It was a very nervous experience for Wilson as the city’s police administrator. At the last second, Vice President Lyndon Johnson attended in the game in Kennedy’s stead. The experience notably differed since it was the VP, not the president. HG was appalled by how ritualistic yet inadequate the security detail was. It turned into a logistical nightmare, including misdirection of the vice president’s vehicle down unprotected streets. Only later did HG and others find that the misdirection was due to an impromptu route change due to a police officer’s poor traffic direction.

Keywords: Chicago; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; University of Wisconsin; Willard Hurst

03:14:43 - Using the Ford grant

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Partial Transcript: So, um, so now we're back to--

The Ford grant

Segment Synopsis: HG returns to the topic of the Ford Foundation grant. Frank Remington sought to use the money to expose students to the implementation of the law. He wanted them to witness the law in action and to provide the public—including inmates—with legal services. About eight students at a time served state and federal correctional institutions under Remington and HG’s supervision. The Ford Foundation grant called for similar services in policing; so, HG placed students in police departments around the country for summer internships. The students served to develop and propose legal policies while observing police administration.

HG oversaw the internship program and participated in Frank’s classes, including a new class on criminal law administration. HG also lectured first-year students on criminal law. Margo Melly, Ed Kimball, Don Newman covered different aspects of the class content, including juvenile justice, policing, and corrections.

HG branched off and created his own course on policing. He contemplated the general goal of teaching about policing, asking what its purpose should be for law students. He believed it was important for lawyers to understand law enforcement as well as interpretation. Legal advisers and prosecutors should be aware of their jurisdiction’s law enforcement policies, HG believes.

Keywords: Don Newman; Ed Kimball; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; Margo Melly; Russell-Sage Foundation

03:24:17 - Teaching a new class / Book publication

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Partial Transcript: Um, I should perhaps

Segment Synopsis: HG created his own course on policing. Each year he created a binder of lecture material for the course, including scholarship, popular articles, police department reports, and current events to supplement the primary class material. He revised the materials every year to keep the class up to date. His coverage of issues in the course became the basis for his book, Policing a Free Society (1977), which is available for download on the UW Law School’s website. The book changed copyright until two years ago, when a question of its access came up. Kris Turner, Head of Reference at the Law School Library, took it upon himself to publish the book online as a free PDF. As of this interview, it has been downloaded about 1,300 times.

In addition to the basic course HG taught, Frank taught a criminal law administration course, introducing first-year law students to legal administration. They influenced legal pedagogy in other parts of country. In addition to the internship program, HG and Remington took students for a weekend to Chicago, where they would meet with the superintendent. HG’s connections in Chicago allowed students to spend time in the field at numerous locations, observing how police interacted with citizens. They also attended court sessions and held discussions about their experiences. This trip was a valuable experience for students. A surprising practice many students witnessed was frequent and indiscriminate stopping-and-questioning: police arbitrarily stopped and questioned people on the streets, searching them and finding things such as guns and knives.

Keywords: Chicago; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; Kris Turner; Policing a Free Society

03:36:18 - Educating the police

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Partial Transcript: Okay, so we're back.

Segment Synopsis: Another important part of the program involved serving the needs of the state. HG decided to connect with Howard Bjorklun, chief of police of Beloit, WI, who allowed HG to meet with his staff. They arranged a program educating the police about the U.S. Constitution, especially the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments. The program enthused staff members and satisfied HG’s desire to enlighten law enforcement. He met with and educated police around the state, raising their awareness of the needs of minority residents. This created a better incentive to improve community life and thereby reduce crime.

HG recalls working with Mayor Lindsey of New York in 1965. Lindsey created a task force on which HG served, addressing policing issues typical of large cities. This was the beginning of HG’s deeper effort to extend the Wisconsin Idea to policing and education about it.

Troy Reeves inquires HG about the Democratic National Convention of 1968, which took place in Chicago and erupted in several riots. The violence horrified HG. Mayor Richard Daley issued an infamous order to police to use deadly force if and when necessary. HG contrasts the convention with a similar event in Chicago four years earlier.

Keywords: Beloit, WI; Chicago; Democratic National Convention of 1968; Fifth Amendment; First Amendment; Fourth Amendment; John Lindsay; Richard Daley; United States Constitution

03:46:59 - UW Law Library criminal justice collection

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Partial Transcript: Ok, uh, today is, uh, December 14th, 2016.

Segment Synopsis: HG noticed in the UW library system a lack of materials about criminal law and sought to change that. He set up a special collection in the law library including materials that thitherto had never been assembled for a single collection. The library hired a special librarian named Sue Center, who later became its Associate Director of Public Services, to build the collection. Soon the collection became a national resource, providing academic institutions with the first collection of its kind.

Center managed the collection and created an extension program for a wider community, including people working in public and criminal law. This created a new dimension of the university’s outreach program, facilitating access to legal materials for law enforcement officials. The utility of the collection was such that the law school sought special funding for it from the state (after university funding had run out); thus, a special piece of legislation was written to extend the funding.

Eventually, as other libraries eliminated special collections and integrated them into their larger repositories, the law school library did likewise. During this transition, much of the ephemeral material was eliminated. HG is personally grateful to the library for its services and helping him publish his work over the years.

Keywords: Sue Center; University of Wisconsin Law School Library

03:55:12 - The President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice: Addressing police discretion

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Partial Transcript: Um, I thought I would try today to, to cover the effort that, uh, that our program made toward contributing toward the exploration of critical issues relating to criminal justice on the national scene.

Segment Synopsis: HG prefaces the interview section with a remark on how his work advanced the criminal justice system. There were national vehicles available for his colleagues’ and his ideas. He recalls a 1965 labor strike in New York City, where the new mayor, John Lindsay, had created a task force to address law enforcement problems. HG injected some of the Wisconsin Idea into the project.

HG recalls the Johnson-Goldwater presidential election of 1964, when, for the first time, law enforcement was on the national agenda. The Supreme Court made several important decisions regarding criminal justice, including Miranda v. Arizona (1966), which decided that the Fifth Amendment requires law enforcement officials to advise suspects of their right to remain silent and to obtain counsel while in police custody. This effectively extended protection against self-incrimination to all settings.

President Johnson appointed a commission to address policing issues. Formally titled the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice, it aimed to revise and refine field procedures and to avoid deferring such matters entirely to the courts. Frank Remington and HG worked on a police task force, which sought to institutionalize professional standards for law enforcement. They inquired police departments about their procedures when dealing with various matters, including those in poor and minority neighborhoods. HG believed law administrators needed to attend more to substantive issues such as police discretion when dealing with citizens on the street. There was a summary publication and task force reports made from these efforts. HG’s work was in a task force report that received a lot of attention.

Keywords: American Bar Foundation; Harvard University; John Lindsay; Lloyd Owen; Lyndon Johnson; Miranda v. Arizona; New York; President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice; Presidential Election of 1964; Supreme Court of the United States

04:09:30 - The President's commission: Broadening the concept of criminal justice

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Partial Transcript: Let me elaborate a little on th-tha-the nature of that substantive contribution.

Segment Synopsis: HG elaborates on the substantive contribution of his work. The traditionalists at the President’s commission (officially titled the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice) wanted to divest the police of what they believed were “non-police functions.” They wanted to reduce police workload and increase their concentration on fewer tasks. However, they also would reduce their status to “police agent” with fewer qualifications and accordingly less pay.

Frank Remington and HG responded critically that policing entails more than remedial tasks and even more than traditional policing. Indeed, HG does not use the term “law enforcement” in reference to police because he believes their responsibilities include more than law enforcement. Police spend a rather small amount of time with crime and a much greater portion dealing with broader social issues, including poverty, mental health, and social justice.

The American Bar Foundation discovered that the law was used for far more than criminal issues, for better or worse. Without adequate resources, police often resorted to abusing the law to get the job done. Through the President’s commission on crime, HG publicized the fact that police responsibilities included far more than law enforcement.

Keywords: American Civil Liberties Union; Detroit; Frank Remington; President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice

04:14:43 - The President's commission: Implementing progressive policing techniques

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Partial Transcript: Now, right behind that observation, substantively

Segment Synopsis: HG recalls the television show Dragnet and the false way it portrays law enforcement: the cliché-to-be, “I don’t make the law; I just enforce it,” was a myth. Instead, HG argues that police have and need wide discretion, and that police administrators must function as policymakers. They must decide such things as which issues to address, how to address them, how many resources they need, which laws to enforce, and which events to investigate. The scope of police authority, such as if and when they may release a suspect, also came into question.

The chief of police ought to take initiative in policymaking, HG argued, and use progressive techniques to do so. One such technique was to revise stopping and questioning. The arbitrary and antagonistic nature of police questioning by that point was counterproductive—administrators even called it by a euphemism, “aggressive preventive patrol.” Time and resources were overspent on this technique.

HG advocated greater regulation for police questioning on the street. This raised the question whether police ever could legitimately stop and question people. The ACLU said never, which surprised HG, who believed it was essential that police inquire to figure out if and when “departures from the norm” took place. HG wanted not to deny police this responsibility (as did the ACLU, it seemed), but to regulate it and make it more effective. The legal standard for stopping and questioning was whether there was “reason to suspect.”

Keywords: American Civil Liberties Union

04:23:36 - Results of the President's commission on law enforcement

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Partial Transcript: So tha-that's my, eh, in-in brief, and all-too-brief.

Segment Synopsis: HG believes Frank Remington and he contributed to the national debate on policing in a significant way. They pushed police agencies to undertake self-regulation and to accept the fact that their job entails more than law enforcement. They had an obligation to work with marginalized parts of society in particular, and needed resources and procedures over and above criminal law to fulfill this obligation. HG advocated that police take into custody—not arrest—people who were inebriated, and send them to detox units. Support for such an approach grew quickly among the public.

One of the results of the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice was the establishment of state consults to coordinate efforts. The term “criminal justice system” was coined at this time; HG believes the American Bar Foundation study influenced it. HG served on the Wisconsin consult on criminal justice. The members met regularly to address systemic problems in the system, and reached out to local and state politicians. Through the consult federal funds were spent on criminal justice issues.

Urban disturbances and civil rights topped the national agenda. A federal commission on civil disorders explored the causes of urban discontent, studying the connection of these causes with race relations. The study found that police questioning contributed to racial tensions in large urban areas. Black community members complained of police abusing power, especially in the form of stopping and questioning.

Keywords: President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice

04:33:44 - Establishing national policing standards

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Partial Transcript: These concerns, uh, quickly lead.

Segment Synopsis: The role of the police became an issue for many urban areas in the U.S. Questions of police authority, organization, and relation to society became more important. This, in turn, led to the further question of the lawyer’s role in guiding the criminal justice system. The American Bar Association launched a project on determining criminal justice standards. The project yielded several publications on the matter.

Chief Justice of the United States Warren Burger served as the chair of the project committee. He appointed Frank Remington, as chair of the national ABA committee on police function standards, which were developed in Wisconsin. This committee project led to a publication on the standards of urban police function. It provided HG with another public opportunity to advocate taming police agencies throughout the country. The effort received support from International Association of Chiefs of Police and the National Sheriff’s Association. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) encouraged local police agencies to adopt the standards created by the study.

HG recalls checking in at the desk in Quantico. There he met the chief of police in Honolulu, the head of the Hawaiian ABA branch, and several other major figures in Hawaiian policing. To HG’s surprise, these officials were meeting one another for the first time; thus, the conference was the first opportunity for the state’s law enforcement officials to collaborate and improve work in their jurisdictions.

HG concludes the session with allusions to the next session's topics, including the application of his research to local policing issues.

Keywords: American Bar Association; Federal Bureau of Investigation; Honolulu; International Association of Chiefs of Police; National Sheriffs' Association; Quantico, Hawaii

04:49:01 - Prelude to the Dow Riot

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Partial Transcript: Alright, uh, good morning. Today is January 6, 2017.

Segment Synopsis: HG recaps the interview hitherto, mentioning his work in Chicago and its effect on his career to follow. He established the Wisconsin Consult of Criminal Justice, which served to reform the state’s criminal justice system.

Bronson La Follette’s tenure as the state’s Attorney General oversaw a lot of progress in policing reform. HG participated to see if there were internal problems. Bill Emory was chief of police at the time and developed a good relationship with HG. Emory noted there was high turnover in the Madison Police Department; Mayor Otto Festge asked HG to look into it. HG interviewed members of the department to see if there were internal issues. HG had become acquainted with the university’s “protection security department” (i.e., the campus police), led by Ralph Hanson, whom HG respected greatly.

HG comments on several episodes preceding the Dow Riot in Madison. Student objection to the Vietnam War grew steadily. In February of 1967 (eight months before the Dow Riot), Robert Kennedy spoke on campus; several students sought to disrupt his speech, leading to what has become known as the “heckler’s veto.” This provoked discussion among faculty and administrators over the propriety and limits of protest.

In April of 1967, several CIA recruiters conducted interviews at the UW Law School, furthering student unrest and providing a preview of the riots a few months later. There was a recent change in administration as Robin Flemming left the chancellorship, taken over by Bill Sewell. Sewell viewed the chancellorship as a more traditional position of academic leadership. He did not fully know what he was in for; he did not anticipate dealing with violence on campus. He later remarked to HG that he did not plan to lead in army into combat.

Keywords: Bill Emory; Bronson La Follette; Central Intelligence Agency; Dow Riot; Fred Harvey Harrington; Madison Police Department; Milwaukee; Ralph Hanson; Robert Kennedy; Robin Flemming; William Sewell

05:02:07 - The Dow Riot and initial reactions

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Partial Transcript: Uh, I suppose it's best if we probably just shift to a discussion of what happened on, on 67.

Segment Synopsis: HG became involved in handling the Dow Riot by virtue of his relationship with Ralph Hanson, director of campus police. HG convened with Hanson after the riot to discuss how to handle such events in the future. HG did not anticipate the riot at all, never mind its magnitude. That day, when the campus police found themselves unprepared and overwhelmed, the UW Chancellor, the Dean of Students, and other administrators turned to the Madison Police Department for help. There was little coordination among law enforcement. Eventually, police resorted to tear gas. The only tactic Chief Emery employed was to take caution in using riot sticks.

The event triggered a state of paranoia among university administrators, who quickly convened to discuss preparing for contingencies. The meetings—“strategy sessions,” as HG dubbed them—went late into evenings and spilled over into weekends. Attending administrators focused on investing more time and resources into campus policing. The university had depended on city police a great deal. The meetings were very rushed; participants wanted to move from analysis to implementation quickly enough to prepare for the next riot. The line between campus and city police authorities remained unclear.

The CIA recruitment interviews were rescheduled away from the center of campus; they took place in the Memorial building next to the field house, away from student traffic. They went uninterrupted and drew over one hundred interviewees. The Madison Police Department posed a question regarding its own resources, wondering what to do when they needed backup after assisting campus police. Campus police were assigned to the interior of the building while city police were assigned outside, but in a subtle manner so as not to provoke a riot. There were many memos outlining the details of the meetings.

Keywords: Central Intelligence Agency (CIA); Dow Riot; Madison Police Department; Ralph Hanson; Wilbur Emery

05:22:31 - University preparation for future riots

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Partial Transcript: I think without going into all the details, it was a sort of nerve-racking experience.

Segment Synopsis: The strategy sessions were a nerve-racking experience for HG, especially since he was aware of the campus police’s inexperience and ill-preparedness. The meetings in the Chancellor's office left HG with a picture he will never forget: an august room with paintings of former administrators on the walls. It was uncomfortable for HG, especially given the reason for the meetings. They involved people of conflicting viewpoints trying to establish procedures for handling future riots. Dane County Sheriff Jack Leslie used very earthy language at the meetings to express his feelings about the students. HG tried to tame this understandable frustration but also needed to attend to the police’s perspective. This was especially important since security personnel typically become the object of protestors’ frustrations.

HG remarks that there were several audiences to the protest and its aftermath: the protesters themselves, students not involved, faculty and staff, university administrators, and state legislators. The gap between the meeting group in which HG participated and the state legislature frustrated HG. At the end of one meeting, Chancellor Sewell asked if they would be all set for tomorrow, which prompted HG to remind the group that they were very vulnerable. Humor helped them a great deal, especially from Ed Young, who would later become Chancellor. Protests continued each day while the meetings took place. Ralph Hanson often left the meetings to respond to issues outside.

Chief Emery insisted that, during the rescheduled interviews, there be a show of force at the Memorial building, where police would be stationed and better equipped. Most others at the discussion, including HG, objected that such presence would be provocative and only worsen the situation. Instead, they recommended a subtler presence of police. Chief Emery initially objected but eventually agreed.

At the request of the Board of Regents, HG conducted a study of the university’s capacity to address such issues as the Dow Riot. He did extensive work on all UW campuses with help from Ralph Hanson, then submitted the study to the Board. There is a mass of material relating to the study, including many recommendations for empowering campus police and preparing them adequately for riots and similar events. HG found that campus police, who were under control of the grounds people, had very limited authority. The Sheriff deputized them to give them full police power. Willard Hurst’s son served on the study as a research assistant.

Keywords: Ed Young; Jack Leslie; Ralph Hanson; Willard Hurst; William Sewell

05:51:34 - Debating the value of campus police

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Partial Transcript: Well let me move back to the movement in the legislature.

Segment Synopsis: Jim Klauser, staff member for state legislator Harold Froehlich, proposed abolishing the campus police on the argument that they were inadequate; the campus would be incorporated as a city neighborhood, thus falling under Madison Police jurisdiction. In the event that the police needed backup, Klauser said, they would contract out to a third party. Questions arose regarding compensation. The Wisconsin governor decided as an alternative to have National Guard augment the police. HG supported this decision, believing that the Guard would serve better than an extension of city police. He also favored the guard because many officers serving were students, with whom the students on campus would better identify.

Jim Klauser attacked HG’s report on the campus police and his recommendations. Klauser’s report argued that the campus incidents were relatively minor and that the Madison campus could easily be incorporated with reassignment of some city police officers. This conflict played out in the legislature for over a year. HG participated in the hearings and testified on the importance of having campus police. Against his testimony, several legislators testified. Chief Emery sided with Klauser.

Drugs had become a concern at this time; legislators were very critical of campus police for their lax enforcement of drug laws. Responsibility for their enforcement must be deferred to the city police. Numerous memos were created. HG played an important role conducting and consolidating research to support arguments for retaining a campus police force. Outside policing would impose views inconsistent with the campus. The legislation failed and additional funds were put toward campus policing.

Keywords: Harold Froehlich; Jim Klauser; National Guard; Wilbur Emery

05:59:03 - Handling tension between city police and the university.

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Partial Transcript: Alright, good morning. Uh, today is January 11th, 2017.

Segment Synopsis: Next interview. HG clarifies a prior interview that he was asked to conduct a study by Mayor Festge. HG elaborates on the Mifflin Street block party incident, which raised questions about the relationship between police and the community. There were myriad protests and confrontations following the Dow Riot, both on and off campus. Law enforcement officials discussed how to handle them. There was a particular question regarding if and when campus police should deal with students protesting off campus.

In 1969, the first Mifflin Street block party took place, involving a mix of partying and protesting. A confrontation between students and police arose. Excessive alcohol consumption exacerbated the situation. Violence ensued. Police were inexperienced. Each year police learn more about handling such situations, especially communication with parties involved. HG mentions the police’s use of “soft hats,” i.e., their removal of hats to indicate that they mean no harm but only to facilitate the celebration. This practice helped reduce tension, which reduced the number of arrests.

Campus police were involved in the parties to the extent that the municipality requested further help. HG does not recall whether campus police were on the scene at the Mifflin Street events. He recalls another big event—the Sterling Hall bombing on August 24, 1970—that influenced police reform. There is a collection of materials on the event in UW Archives. The bombing produced a lot of trauma on campus. It redefined student protests. The explosion, which killed one person, sent a shock wave throughout the community, and posed questions regarding the limits of protest, especially the question if protest may ever entail violence.

Keywords: Dow Riot; Joe Kauffman; Mifflin Street; Otto Festge; Sterling Hall bombing

06:13:53 - HG's role in addressing student-police tension.

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Partial Transcript: Just briefly, you asked, if I might reflect on, uh, on that period.

Segment Synopsis: Ralph Hanson, as head of campus police, was very sophisticated in dealing with university-police problems, requiring little outside help. The larger community realized there was a cultural gap between the university and police. As a mediator between the two, HG learned that such a gap is not uncommon. It seemed that police training involved little education on constitutional rights, which, HG contends, takes priority over enforcing criminal law. Policing extends to protecting people’s rights, not just arrest and detention; police function to facilitate the exercise of rights.

Gradually, police learned more about constitutional law and academics learned more about policing; consequently, they developed greater mutual respect. This gave a preview of policing in urban areas, where police-community tension has not yet subsided. Recent police shootings have resurrected issues from incidents in the 1960s and 1970s. As we experience such a crisis, we need to examine these events and learn how to prevent them. HG mentions the Kent State shootings, which elucidated the severity of student-police tension. The challenge of how to reduce it reflects similar questions HG asked in the 60s and 70s.

Keywords: Kent State; Ralph Hanson

06:26:08 - Entry of a new, progressive Madison police chief

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Partial Transcript: I should, uh, point out, returning to the campus

Segment Synopsis: The Madison police selected a new chief in 1972, which initiated further policing reform. Nonetheless, there remained tension between police and the community. Other parts of the state had implemented new laws further limiting police power. HG withheld himself from assisting the search for a new chief of police to replace Emery; he did not want to risk exacerbating divisions between different parts of the community. He did not want to entice candidates because he sensed that there was someone already selected. Thus, HG did not make any recommendations to Chief Stevens, head of the police-fire commission; however, he did point out that several “very enlightened” police chiefs were coming to the school to give presentations and that Stevens would be welcome to meet them. Stevens was an extraordinary individual, HG later learned.

Among the progressive chiefs was Dave Cooper, a former Minneapolis police officer working in Burnsville. At this time, the police-fire commission had a split vote between two MPD officers. Mr. Stevens chose Couper, deadlocking the commission. Eventually the commission agreed on Cooper. Shortly thereafter, Couper took charge, building tension in the police department. Cooper collaborated with others to take a softer approach to protests than his predecessor. HG notes that there was an incident when the old chief planned to be very hard on a State Street protest; Chief Couper, by contrast, volunteered to march ahead of the protests. This difference encapsulated the change in police attitude under Couper.

Keywords: Chief Stevens; David Couper; Wilbur Emery

06:38:05 - National commission work

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Partial Transcript: Alright, um, so I think you want to shift gears.

Segment Synopsis: Several national organizations formed around HG’s work. His appearance on the national scene began with his work with the Chicago Police Department. He had a strong relationship with people of the University of Chicago and the U.S. Department of Justice. He participated in the National Conference on Bail and Criminal Justice, overseen by Attorney General Ramsey Clarke, addressing law enforcement problems faced by low-income citizens. The conference discussed several ways to eliminate or reduce bail.

HG participated in several other commissions, including the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice discussed earlier, and the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, regarding minority communities and their relationship with police. Soon after the shootings of MLK and Robert Kennedy, the Johnson Administration called the U.S. National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence (National Violence Commission). Frank Remington and HG were heavily involved in all three commissions, given their experience and their close ties with the U.S. Attorney General, who held seminars across the country to influence police chiefs. Ramsey Clarke served as a spokesperson for the commission, advocating more progressive law enforcement and asking police to set higher standards for themselves.

The Ford Foundation was extremely receptive to these reform efforts. They gave HG a grant to travel in Europe to examine their police operations. The primary question was what other countries’ police did differently from American police. HG found it very informative, finding entire departments unarmed; the English police were very conscious of civility. They were not nearly as aggravated as American police. HG had close connection with the Ford Foundation: whenever a police-related agency requested funds, HG assisted in reviewing the grant. The Foundation decided it could not handle the police requests individually; thus, Ford created a grant of $30 million for the Police Foundation, a new organization that would manage its own staff and grants for police reform. HG was involved in the Foundation’s creation. He attended a reception for Charles Rogerman, the Foundation’s first administrator. The initial planning for the foundation was done on the UW campus. One idea proposed that the police connect with academia to continue research into police reform.

The Police Foundation began a project that used four cities, including Kansas City, Baltimore, and Cincinnati, as laboratories for reform proposals. In 1972, the Ford Foundation gave the UW Law School a grant to connect people from eight communities for a seminar that lasted three weeks on the Madison campus. The commissioners and police chiefs from those cities attended the seminar. The delegations comprised the chief, some key staff members, and member of the press. The seminar aimed to improve press coverage as well as police operations. Much was gained from having these people communicate with each other, sharing perspectives, plans, and experiences. The mere fact that they were willing to attend suggested their awareness of policing problems.

UW faculty staffed the seminar, along with other notable academics, including Egon Bittner, from Brandeis University. Initially, there was tension between him and the attending police; this subsided over the course of the seminar and turned into mutual respect. Morton Bard, a psychologist from New York who was researching criminal psychology, had developed some experiments testing new policing strategies; it was very avant-garde work at the time.

Keywords: Attorney General Ramsey Clarke; Baltimore; Cincinnati; Egon Bittner; Ford Foundation; Frank Remington; Kansas City; Kent State; Martin Bard; Martin Luther King, Jr.; Morton Bard; National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders; National Conference on Bail and Criminal Justice; President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice; U.S. National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence; UW Law School; United States Department of Justice

06:57:06 - The Police Executive Research Forum (PERF)

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Partial Transcript: Okay, so uh, I think we have time for, probably one more.

Segment Synopsis: HG discusses the Police Foundation, led by Pat Murphy, former police commissioner of New York. Murphy recognized the Foundation for its funding for the Kansas City patrol project. George Kelly, a graduate student from Madison, conducted the study, raising questions about the value of existing police strategies. This spurred other studies that sought replacements for questionable police procedures.

The Foundation created the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF), whose members were by invitation only, had to be college graduates, and had to be open to research for policing reform. Pat Murphy selected Gary Hayes as PERF’s first executive director. Hayes was a student of HG’s. As director, he developed a strong commitment to research. Unfortunately, he died of cancer while working on PERF. Several very competent directors came and went in the following years. It has become a membership organization (i.e., paid dues, as opposed to strict invitation).

PERF’s role has expanded and evolved over time, positively influencing policing over the years. It sponsored conferences on problem-oriented policing, HG’s main research topic for the last thirty years. HG mentions he was excited to see PERF take a proactive approach to problems underlying the 2016 crisis related to police shootings: it created a thirty-step guideline for addressing use of force problems. PERF has emphasized the value of education, still requiring at least a baccalaureate of its members. HG thanks the UW for giving birth to the PERF.

Keywords: Clarence Kelly; Gary Hayes; George Kelly; Kansas City patrol project; New York; Pat Murphy; Police Executive Research Forum; Police Foundation

07:08:30 - Introducing problem-oriented policing (POP)

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Partial Transcript: Alright, uh, today is January 17th, 2017.

Segment Synopsis: Final interview session: HG begins discussing problem-oriented policing (POP), his primary research topic for the last thirty years of his career. POP is a policing model that aims to shift the focus of policing from means, i.e., how to respond to crime, to ends, i.e., how to prevent crime. This requires police and related agencies to investigate the social issues underlying criminal activity, and then to address those issues to prevent crime.

Another major goal of POP is to emphasize research, to conduct analyses of social trends that may lead to criminal tendencies. POP advocates public engagement to address community problems. In general, POP aims to shift focus from criminal punishment to crime prevention—to stop the problem from occurring in the first place. HG recognized this model as a paradigm shift, a radical change in the purpose of policing.

At the macro level, HG’s concept of POP aims to change policing in a radical, holistic manner, building on conclusions drawn from the American Bar Foundation study. More specifically, one of POP’s goals is to broaden policing’s purpose, extending it from mere crime fighting to handling broader societal problems, including socio-behavioral issues and the protection of constitutional rights. POP calls for police to become more proactive and to identify underlying problems, which police then can target, thereby reducing crime in the first place. This method is meant to replace the standard, narrow, reactive model of policing, which addresses crime only after the fact.

Keywords: American Bar Foundation; Sam Walker; University of Nebraska; problem-oriented policing

07:18:14 - Specific cases of POP implementation

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Partial Transcript: Now I also indicated I wanted to briefly--and go-going talk about the essence policing.

Segment Synopsis: HG recalls a cynical officer asking him to clarify POP. He describes the essence of POP at a micro-level, valuing new, preventive methods of response that do not depend on the criminal justice system, and which engage other parts of the community. POP is committed to implementing the method, analyzing its effectiveness, and then reporting conclusions to other police agencies.

HG retired from the UW Law School in 1994 to devote more time and attention to POP research. There have been numerous developments in the concept. The accumulation of case studies in POP amounted to over a thousand: many agencies have participated in POP. Many of these studies were showcased at the annual POP conference, now 26 years old. It occurred primarily in San Diego but now takes place elsewhere. Police departments submit write-ups for judgement and awards, providing incentive for organizations to participate.

HG describes several example cases of POP implementation. One significant project occurred in Madison, where the police department and the city government reported on their responses to State Street Halloween parties, which typically devolved into riots. The MPD applied POP by redefining the event as a controlled musical gathering rather than a capricious social event. This posed a challenge for police when confronted with outsiders who expected to riot.

HG describes another case study involving the Merseyside Police in England. There was a concern about rising numbers of assault, especially those involving broken drinking glasses. The police analyzed the issue and concluded that they could replace the glasses with plastic cups. This regulation spread to other parts of England and solved the problem. Another issue was public transit robberies: by eliminating the requirement that, e.g., bus drivers carry change with them for passengers who cannot make exact payment, urban areas all but eliminated the recurrence of mass transit robberies.

Keywords: England; Madison Police Department; Merseyside Police; State Street Halloween party; UW Law School; problem-oriented policing

07:32:01 - Seeing results from POP

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Partial Transcript: Herman, can I jump in here, and if you're going to talk about it later, that's great.

Segment Synopsis: HG discusses another case study of POP in Glendale California, where homelessness was a growing problem. People solicited funds on the street. The police wanted to know how they were doing it. They arranged for Catholic charities to establish a facility near a Menards store, where staff invited homeless individuals to register their professional skills and purchase items accordingly. The facility provided equational programs and a regulatory effort to dissuade street soliciting. This idea was repeated in several other areas.

HG highlights several matters on POP in the nineties. The practice of POP moved down the ranks of organizations, encouraging individual officers to address recurrent problems in their jurisdictions. A famous case study in the Green Bay Police Department involved problems with inebriate people downtown. The police worked with taverns and social agencies to engage these individuals with increased regulations. They managed to clean up parts of Green Bay to the satisfaction of the community.

HG took off two years to visit Mecklenburg County, North Carolina, where he conducted a project with the cooperation of the police department to train them in POP. There has yet to be a police department that operates exclusively on POP. Often the model is more attractive to officers than to their chiefs. One of the most successful dimensions of POP was its development of alternative solutions to common problems. These ranged from crime prevention education to community organization training. Cooperation from various social institutions was critical to these solutions. Police and their communities began attending to mental health issues as a unique set of problems.

This refined, progressive approach to social problems reflected Frank Remington’s pedagogy, which illuminated subtle differences between such problems and the proper ways to handle them. Repeat sexual offenders were released into the community with no guidance, which worsened recidivism. HG encouraged police agencies to engage in targeted deterrence, working with people with violent dispositions. Such targeted work proved effective.

Another result of the project was changes in product design: modifications to personal items, such as cellphones, that would reduce criminal activity and public accidents. Advocacy for anti-theft devices, e.g., proved more effective than sting operations. This design trend spread across the country quickly, resulting in a national effort to redesign possessions to render them unusable when stolen.

Shifting-and-sharing involved creative and collaborative efforts to address social problems: different agencies took on different problems so that police departments would not be overwhelmed. Traffic accidents have increased in frequency due to the use of cellphones while on the road. Solutions have been proposed that would disable the phone when the owner is driving; such solutions, however, would have large economic consequences.

Keywords: California; Frank Remington; Green Bay Police Department; North Carolina; problem-oriented policing

07:51:18 - Teaching POP in the U.S. and abroad

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Partial Transcript: Now, there's an additional dimension that became very important in this are--in this period of time.

Segment Synopsis: HG continues discussing his effort to educate police agencies on POP. Many community police incorporated the term “problem” with HG’s connotation. HG did several lectures throughout the U.S. and in other countries. England had its own policing conference in collaboration with the United States. Case studies about these conferences can be found with related work in the UW archives. HG also spread his idea to Brazil and Argentina, two countries in dire need of policing reform. His 1977 book, Policing a Free Society, was republished and translated into Portuguese. A paper by Ron Clarke (who studied situational crime) and John Eck outlines steps to implementing POP; it has been published in twenty languages.

During this dissemination, Michael Scott became a key proponent of POP. HG came to know him when Scott was an undergraduate in sociology at UW-Madison. Scott worked under HG as a research assistant on several projects. He was very interested in developing a 1994 book on POP. He then became a Madison police officer to gain first-hand experience. He then attended Harvard Law and worked several important jobs in government administration, where he promoted POP. He became a chief of police in Florida, where he successfully implemented POP. Scott created the Center for Problem-Oriented Policing. One of its purposes is developing a body of knowledge to produce guides on behavioral problems police may face on the streets. The guide topics include disorder at motels, street racing, underage drinking, prescription fraud, and ID theft, among many others. Scott created a POP website where all this material has been presented. This site facilitated the dissemination of POP literature; many of the guides have been translated into other several languages.

Individual officers interested in POP but employed at departments that do not use it may take it upon themselves via the website. Many officers have pursued POP despite lack of incentives in their agencies. Scott administered POP conferences, which brought together officers from across the country and from other nations. These conferences were unique in that they primarily involved individual officers, not just chiefs of police. Academics also attended to further their studies, as well as press and community members. Unfortunately, when the project ran out of funding and the law school admitted it could not afford all of Scott’s salary, Scott parted ways with UW. He now is in Arizona State, where he seeks funding for the POP website.

Keywords: Gary Hayes; Harvard Law School; John Eck; Michael Scott; Ron Clarke; problem-oriented policing

08:12:36 - The future of POP / Interview conclusion

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Partial Transcript: I think I've said about as much as I can say in the time that we have available.

Segment Synopsis: HG discusses the future of problem-oriented policing (POP). He is concerned that its use has fluctuated across different metropolises, especially in light of recent numerous shootings that have raised racial and political questions about policing. Advocating a concept such as POP is difficult due to its sheer scale and radical, holistic nature. Moreover, public support fluctuates over time, especially as current events dictate the public’s skeptical attitude toward policing and related issues. HG admits there have been disappointing reports from police agencies that implement POP poorly.

At the same time, however, other agencies adopt the model successfully, which is especially good news, given a growing number of police reform models competing with POP. HG doubts these competing models are as robust as POP, with the possible exception of evidence-based policing (EBP), a model that advocates the use of careful and precise quantitative methods from the social sciences. HG respects the EBP’s advocates, but contends that the model’s rigorousness comes at the cost of creative thinking, a core principle of POP.

To HG’s disappointment, EBP has successfully competed with POP for funding. No less, HG trusts that POP has made significant advances and is still alive. The National Research Council did a study with results affirming POP’s efficacy. In the end, the advancement of POP depends on community attitudes, which lately have not been helpful due to policing crises sparking a demand for immediate action.

HG remains optimistic about POP’s future and policing reform more generally. The current tension and hostility toward police has been the most acute policing crisis in HG’s lifetime. Responses to this crisis, including prosecuting officers, establishing accountability, improving training, and increasing police personnel diversity, are all very important, HG states, but do not address the substantive, underlying problem: dysfunctional responsiveness of police across the United States. The only proper solution, for HG, is radically reforming the policing institution itself. Such reformation would ease community tension, reduce the use of force, and lessen the criminal justice system’s punitive role in society.

Keywords: National Research Council; evidence-based policing; problem-oriented policing