Partial Transcript: Hello. I’m Kris Turner, a reference librarian at the University of Wisconsin Law School Library.
Segment Synopsis: Interviewer June Weisberger introduces herself and interviewee James E. Jones, Jr. Prof. Jones was born June 4, 1924 in Little Rock, AK. He was born about a mile west of MacArthur Park, near the state Governor’s Mansion. The University of Arkansas – Little Rock’s medical building was refurbished into the law school. His family was poorly educated but he wanted to change that and get an adequate education himself. He internalized this mentality for the rest of his life. There were no strictly gender-assigned tasks in the family—boys cooked and girls prepared firewood, etc. Each family member was expected to contribute fairly.
Keywords: Bill Clinton; Cherokee; John F. Kennedy; Little Rock, AR; MacArthur Park; Tennessee
Partial Transcript: Well, what about grade school, high school?
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones attended grade school and high school in Detroit. He moved between broken homes many times. He did well in school even though he was held back initially and had to attend one session of summer school. He took a very difficult intelligence test—among the first of its kind—in third grade. Prof, Jones read the Bible daily though he occasionally struggled with his religious beliefs. He attended Sunday school taught by his uncle, with whom he had a mutual dislike. Prof. Jones quit the family church and joined the Episcopalian denomination. During this time, he further developed his work ethic and became more involved in social activities. His interest in college also grew and he looked at his college options, all of which were parochial and segregated. Many attended Arkansas State but it was about 34 miles away in Pine Bluff, making commute difficult. Prof. Jones took advantage of library services and inquired about where to attend college. He was interested in chemistry, so the librarians provided him with resources on colleges that would suit his interests, including Lincoln University, among the best black schools in chemistry. Prof. Jones worked hard to save money for college; he worked ten hours a day, 7 days a week for three months prior. He matriculated at Lincoln University.
Keywords: Arkansas State University; Detroit, MI; Howard University; Lincoln University; Little Rock, AR; Mason-Dixon Line
Partial Transcript: Part two of the first tape with Jim Jones and June Weisberger interviewing him.
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones resumes discussing college at Lincoln University. He had enough money to pay for one semester and for room and board for a month. Though the federal government had just introduced the minimum wage, it did not affect most jobs. Prof. Jones and his family were very poor. He could not afford to wear clothing typically expected of students. Prof. Jones was ambitious, planning to study chemistry and math, work, and play football. He was advised against such a busy schedule, but he wanted to try, especially since he had only a month in school guaranteed. He sought a job to no avail until he ran into a chemistry professor who asked if he would work for him as a lab assistant. The job waived his tuition and room and board, plus twenty-five dollars per month. Moreover, Prof. Jones made the football team.
Prof. Jones signed up for the military to save for finishing his education. He met with the draft board, who told him his draft number would not allow him to finish school. A recruiter persuaded Prof. Jones to join the Navy. He attended segregated naval training. He studied chemistry first thing in the morning, every day. His test scores in the Navy were exceptional, allowing him to attend Hampton Institute, where he learned electrical engineering. He was asked to commit to the Navy for over a decade, which was not his plan. He wanted to leave the Navy and return to school as soon as possible.
Keywords: Hampton Institute; Lincoln University; New York; United States Navy
Partial Transcript: Well what happened when you said "no" to the two-for-one deal?
Segment Synopsis: Professor Jones was in the Navy for almost 3.5 years total and left after almost a year overseas. The GI bill and money that he had saved up on his own made college affordable.
Eventually Professor Jones went back to Nebraska where he realized that he was no longer interested in chemistry. He decided to major in government and finished his degree in three years.
Professor Jones discusses his difficulty in choosing what to study in graduate school. He began to develop an interest in Unions.
Keywords: NYU; Nebraska; New York City
Partial Transcript: I think as of yesterday we got toward the end of your college career...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones is awarded distinguished alumnus award at University of Illinois.
Wisconsin Law School is Prof Jones's next destination.
Prof Jones's work experiences the summer before attending law school.
Considerations in starting law school.
Keywords: Chicago; University of Illinois; University of Wisconsin Law School; Wage Stabilization Board; industrial relations
Partial Transcript: What was your first year here like...
Segment Synopsis: Prof Jones discusses his experiences at University of Wisconsin Law School beginning with his first year.
Earning the Whitney fellowship for year one and year two law school tuition.
Not continuing with the law review.
Coursework at the law school and relating with law professors.
Being assistant to Professor Gus Eckhardt.
The Ph.D. program in industrial relations is introduced by the University of Wisconsin regents.
Graduating from law school and getting a job offer after four months.
Keywords: Gus Eckhardt; University of Wisconsin Law School
Partial Transcript: Law school is coming to a close. What happens next...
Segment Synopsis: Graduating law school and interviewing for positions.
The Department of Labor offered him a job four months after graduating law school.
[Gap until 2:08:30]
Job placement challenges.
Accepting Labor Department position.
Prof. Jones talks about his family.
After accepting Labor Department position, worked in the office of solicitor's division of legislation and legal services.
Edith Nancy Cook, daughter of Walter Wheeler Cook, worked in labor field and became Prof. Jones's mentor.
Casework and training as a junior lawyer.
Keywords: Department of Labor; Edith Nancy Cook; law school graduation
Partial Transcript: You first started with the labor department in 1956...
Segment Synopsis: Union regulation under the Eisenhower administration, legislation division worked on that in the office of the solicitor's -- Prof. Jones was one of five who worked on it.
Structure and function of roles within the Department of Labor.
Experiences working in the Labor Department as a lawyer.
Keywords: Department of Labor; James Mitchell; Labor Department
Partial Transcript: As I recall we were talking about your role in legislation, a junior member of the legal staff...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses his early career as a junior member of the legislative staff in the Department of Labor, his work on the Landrum-Griffin Act, and working with his supervisor Edith Nancy Cook.
Writing the minority report of the House of Representatives on the amendment to the Taft-Hartley Act dealing with the Denver building trades problem.
Keywords: Department of Labor; Edith Nancy Cook; Goldwater-Kearns Bill; Landrum-Griffin Act; National Labor Relations Act; Taft-Hartley Act; U.S. Congress; labor relations; legislative staff
Partial Transcript: I was coming in working on weekends and at night...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones continues the discussion of his responsibilities with the Labor Department.
Discussion of personal life in 1960.
First 100 days of the Kennedy administration within the Labor Department.
Drafting rules and regulations for the executive order. Writing committee reports. Contributions to affirmative action during the Kennedy administration. Acquiring expertise in civil rights rules through the experience--first assignment as a professional in the Labor Department.
Secretary of Labor testimony on FEPC, House Labor committee. Arthur Goldberg testified, on a bill introduced in Congress by the son of the former president, Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Achieved position of Chief of the Research Corporation in Labor Relations.
Keywords: Department of Labor; Labor Department; contract law; corporate law
Partial Transcript: We left off during your department of labor years just when Arthur Goldberg went off to the Supreme Court as a justice and William Wirtz came in...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses his work within the Office of the Secretary of Labor.
Run-up to the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
Howard Jenkins Jr. was appointed to the National Labor Relations Board and asked Prof. Jones to be his chief legal. Howard stayed for 20 years. Prof. Jones remained with the Labor Department and was eventually promoted.
Keywords: Arthur Goldberg; Civil Rights Act of 1964; Department of Labor; Howard Jenkins Jr.; Secretary of Labor; William Wirtz
Partial Transcript: You were telling about the title...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones is promoted within the Labor Department.
Civil Rights Bill of 1963, Bobby Kennedy was the lead off witness.
Congressional recognition of the legitimacy of the president's executive order legislation on anti-discrimination. Roosevelt started it, a senator from Georgia passed the law, making it impossible for FEPC to continue to operate without specific appropriation by Congress.
Keywords: Department of Labor; House Judiciary Committee; Labor Department
Partial Transcript: Would you say there came a time when you spent most of your time on civil rights legislation?
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses the connection between his work and civil rights legislation.
Moved out of the solicitor's office and into a new office as director of a think tank in the same building. Jack Reynolds and Jim Gentry were his colleagues.
Another law position in the solicitor's office opened, and he then assumed that position as a lawyer for the Labor Department.
Keywords: Associate Solicitor for Labor Relations and Civil Rights; Civil Rights Act; Justice Department; civil rights
Partial Transcript: What emerged was the executive order. They passed title 7...
Segment Synopsis: Johnson rewrites the executive orders, all of the Kennedy executive orders plus some others. No longer needed Congress and inter-agency, because in original title 7, one of the major provisions--on employment--mandates the sharing of information between the agencies of coordination. Enabled the Secretary of Labor to delegate everything except the general rule-making.
Keywords: Johnson administration; Justice O'Connor; Secretary of Labor; Title 7; Vice President Humphrey; civil rights; civil rights legislation
Partial Transcript: In 1967 Prof. Jones was appointed the Associate Solicitor in the Department of Labor...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses his time working for the Labor Department just prior to transition to academia.
Organizing the clerical staff and lawyers for improved efficiency.
Keywords: Allen-Bradley Case; Bessie Margolin; Department of Labor; Labor Department; labor relations
Partial Transcript: This is June Weisberger and I am sitting in Professor James Jones's office and we are continuing our conversation about his career, particularly the last couple of years when he was in the Department of Labor, and we are up to the point where there was a change in the administration of the presidency.
Segment Synopsis: Professor Jones talks about his tour of government duty during a new presidential administration.
President Nixon's administration begins, and George P. Shultz--who was Prof. of Industrial Relations at University of Chicago--is appointed as the U.S. Secretary of Labor. Jones is named Associate Solicitor of the Division of Labor Relations and Civil Rights, two of the most politically explosive elements in the Labor Department according to Schultz.
Jones writes a proposal to revise the Philadelphia Plan, a federal affirmative action program to racially integrate the building construction trade unions through mandatory goals for nonwhite hiring on federal construction contracts. The first plan had been declared an illegal quota program in 1968 but this revised version, backed by President Nixon, was approved by Congress a year later.
Several universities approach Jones about becoming a law professor, including Michigan, Cal Davis, Rutgers, and Wisconsin. Although he and his wife Joan, who was a computer programmer at NASA, had a successful life in Washington, Jones accepts a position to teach at UW-Madison – 75% labor law for the Law School and 25% for the Industrial Relations graduate program.
Keywords: Department of Labor; Executive Order 11246; George P. Shultz; James E. Jones, Jr.; Office of the Solicitor; Philadelphia Plan; Philadelphia Plan Revised; Robert Weber; U.S. Secretary of Labor; University of Wisconsin Law School; affirmative action; civil rights; quota; strict scrutiny
Partial Transcript: You entered Madison at such [an active] time...
Segment Synopsis: At the time of Prof. Jones's arrival at Wisconsin Law there were two women on the faculty and he was the first African-American faculty member. He was to teach 25% industrial relations (IR) and 75% labor law. At the time there was no IR tenure track. Spencer Kimball was dean of Wisconsin Law School at the time.
Nathan Feinsinger was the professor of labor law at that time, and Prof. Jones needed to wait until Professor Feinsinger's retirement before assuming that responsibility. Professor Jones originated the teaching of UW-Madison's first civil rights curriculum at the law school.
Employment problems of the disadvantaged was one of the courses Professor Jones taught, another course he taught was Employment Discrimination. He taught Administrative Law for three years. Attained tenure.
Professor Jones discusses the law departments, how they were structured, and the various job functions of each instructor, pay scales, and divisions of responsibility.
Professor Jones discusses the scrapping of the certificate program due to waning quality of the placements and an inadequate means of controlling it.
Discussion of Professor Jones's experience as Director of the Industrial Relations Research Institute (IRRI); first non-economist to serve in the position. Discussion of the various academic backgrounds of faculty and leadership in the Industrial Relations and labor law faculty, whether business and economics background, academic IR background, and or law background.
Professor of industrial relations for 24 years. Describes which courses he taught and how faculty decided with leadership and faculty which courses to teach outside the labor law field.
Served in the university senate for 12 years. Service on the athletic board for 17 years. Prof. Jones advocacy for athletes, including Title IX and academic eligibility rules.
Keywords: IRRI; Industrial Relations Research Institute; Madison; Nathan Feinsinger; Patrick Lucey; Spencer Kimball; University of Wisconsin Law School; civil rights; civil rights curriculum; labor law; professor of labor law
Partial Transcript: This may be a good session to talk about some of the key things you were involved in such as the LEO program, the Hastie Fellows program...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses his involvement in the discussions to decide on either an African Studies program or a department.
The Legal Education Opportunities (LEO) program was a part of a diversity outreach initiative at the University of Wisconsin Law School that Prof. Jones was involved in; initially it had no budgeted money.
When Governor Patrick Lucey assumed office he made pioneering decisions in the hiring of new regents.
Keywords: African Studies Department; Athletic Board; Bascom Professor; Governor Patrick Lucey; Irving Shain; Legal Education Opportunities Program
Partial Transcript: The early days before the Civil Rights Act of '64 very few schools were using tests for student admission...
Segment Synopsis: Ad-hoc committee formed to come up with recommendations for minority students, 25 people on the committee incl. 4 regents, Prof. Jones, university professors, and more.
The insistence was not to lower the academic standards while not segregating. Prof. Jones advocated for educational value of enterprises as a central value.
Keywords: Board of Regents; Civil Rights
Partial Transcript: 7% who are high flyers are going to be lousy performers, and 77% who are lousy test takers are going to be adequate performers...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses the LEO students and their academic situations.
The William H. Hastie Teaching Fellowship Program proposal was written by Prof. Jones and involved the recruitment of minority teachers.
Prof. Jones's stance was that if it's an education problem don't blame the Milwaukee Public Schools system; hold the universities and their schools of education accountable.
The Hastie program is described in further detail to include benefits and fellows.
Keywords: LEO Program; William H. Hastie; William H. Hastie Teaching Fellowship Program
Partial Transcript: This may be a good time to pick up some of the outside activities and some of the university activities like the Athletic Board and the Public Review Board.
Segment Synopsis: Discussion of Prof. Jones's service on the Athletic Board and Public Review Boards, implementing Title IX for women athletes, working with police and fire departments, and joining and working with the United Auto Workers Public Review Board.
Keywords: Athletic Board; Hastie Fellowship Program; Public Review Board; Public Service; Title IX; United Auto Workers Public Review Board
Partial Transcript: I know that you have done grievance arbitration. How did that play into your teaching and other issues related to that?
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones explains the arbitration profession and his involvement in serving as an arbitrator in Madison and in teaching arbitration as well as working in the general council for the federal mediation service in Washington, D.C.
Keywords: Industrial Relations Research Association; National Academy of Arbitrators
Partial Transcript: How the Federal Impasses Panel got started was that Jimmy Carter sent for Prof. Jones in 1977 and asked if he was interested in being nominated and confirmed as the chairman of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses the experiences of being offered federal positions such as the chairmanship of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) and the judgeship commissions.
Keywords: Equal Employment Opportunity Commission; Federal Impasses Panel; Judgeship Commissions; President Jimmy Carter
Partial Transcript: This seems a natural bridge, although you have been formally retired since 1993, in fact you have kept your oar in the academic waters to this date. Do you want to reflect on your retirement when it first became a reality and through the years?
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses personal health challenges, coping, and retirement options.
Economic aspects of retirement.
Partial Transcript: We are talking about your rather comprehensive project of writing your autobiography.
Segment Synopsis: The discussion turns to writing an autobiography and the thought process and procedure that is involved.
Prof. Jones explains the focus of his memoir and the inspiration from his grandmother in shaping his life and career choices.
Growing up in Arkansas, attending high school, earning grades, finding a role as a student, contributing.
As a law professor, declining candidacy for state and federal judgeship.
Keywords: arkansas; autobiography; memoir; writing
Partial Transcript: ...how was it that the president ended up choosing me as the candidate...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses his career in government, the highlights and the substance of what he was doing.
Keywords: Executive Order on Affirmative Action; House Labor Committee; Kennedy Administration; Philadelphia Plan; equal employment provisions; labor relations orders
Partial Transcript: ...doing something that helps others...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses specific experiences that highlight his career, including working in government and academia.
Writing the rules and regulations of the Kennedy executive order on affirmative action as a journeymen legislative lawyer.
Representing Arthur Goldberg as Council, House Labor Committee.
Staff lawyer to write public sector labor relations for the federal government, 10988, during the Kennedy administration.
Revised Philadelphia Plan for the Nixon administration. An implementation of the Kennedy Johnson executive order contract requirements.
Keywords: Counsel of Record for Testimony; Equal Employment Provisions; Executive Order on Affirmative Action; House Labor Committee; Labor Relations Orders; Philadelphia Plan; Public Sector; Rules and Regulations
Partial Transcript: ...then I took off to academia...
Segment Synopsis: Discussion of career highlights in academia, including working with the Atlanta and Georgia Bar Associations, Southwest Legal Foundation.
Early publications on labor management.
Shortly after arriving in Madison, being recruited for the Regents Ad-hoc Committee on Minority and Disadvantaged Students.
Involvement in creating the African Studies department.
Assembling course materials for employment discrimination law.
Establishing the William H. Hastie Teaching Fellowship program.
Athletic Board membership, serving for 17 years; advocacy for academics in athletics and creation of women's athletics.
Hiring new law professors; labor law clinicals; editorial policy committee for Labor Law Group; recruiting faculty.
Teaching future lawyers.
Keywords: Atlanta and Georgia Bar Associations; Labor Law Group; Southwest Legal Foundation; UAW Public Review Board; William H. Hastie Teaching Fellowship; labor management
Partial Transcript: This leads naturally into something I wanted to ask you about which is on the academic side...what do you see is the future of labor law?
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses the future of labor law and how it deals in human rights for workers.
Efforts to ensure people having some security regarding their existence, some right to individual respect and worth.
The perceptions of religion and labor as life ideals.
Labor law as trying to improve the human condition as best as one can.
Edward C. Sylvester anecdote.
Keywords: Education in Labor Law; Human Rights; Labor Law
Partial Transcript: What he now sees as highlights in his various careers...
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones talks about his career highlights.
Publications about equal opportunity and administrative action Prof. Jones was involved with.
The 1967 Allen-Bradley case in Milwaukee.
The Wisconsin Law School program and similar programs.
Career as a federal lawyer, including involvement with the Philadelphia Plan revised.
Lyndon B. Johnson administration involvement.
Public sector revolution that the Kennedy executive order started. Civil Service reform of 1978.
Keywords: Allen-Bradley Case; Career Highlights; Government Career; Labor Department; Philadelphia Plan
Partial Transcript: Question: Do you want to go on to do public service highlights?
Response: When I was being recruited by the law school, I hadn't given any thought to teaching...
Segment Synopsis: Discussion of highlights of Prof. Jones's career in public service.
Service in the United States Department of Labor.
Choice to stay in Department of Labor until retirement or consider some other approach. It was not a foregone conclusion that he was going to come to UW-Madison to teach.
Students making demands of the University of Wisconsin concerning Vietnam and black students.
Helping the regents craft their minority and disadvantaged students program.
"One of the most significant developments of [his] teaching career was the non-teaching public service part because the regents had the need to deal with something..."
Governor Lucey budget reductions by 10%. Potential budget reduction effect on the minority and disadvantaged students program, changes in how minority and disadvantaged funding was used.
Recruitment of staff to work on diversity issues at University of Wisconsin.
Development of Department of Afro-American Studies.
Establishing the special advisory committee for minority input into athletic issues at the Big 10 schools.
Keywords: Public Service
Partial Transcript: When we got money for the M & D and closed the segregated house... through contact with the chancellor we got the first $36,000 of 101 money for the LEO program.
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses the LEO program's funding situation.
Funding for the Hastie Fellowship Program.
Conversation with US President Jimmy Carter regarding a position in the US Presidential administration that Prof. Jones did not pursue.
Keywords: LEO Program
Partial Transcript: We're up to the point about paths not taken; things you might have done but chose not to or had other priorities. What are some of those?
Segment Synopsis: Prof. Jones discusses career paths that he declined to follow.
Why Prof. Jones stayed in Wisconsin rather than pursue a career in the federal judiciary.
Recruitment by Northwestern, Cornell, Minnesota, Georgetown, Virginia, and Florida, and why he decided to remain at University of Wisconsin Law School.
Bridging the UW-Madison Industrial Relations program and the Wisconsin Law School Labor Law program at UW-Madison rather than doing so at University of Minnesota.
Declined to pursue opportunities to work at Western Electric, for trade unions, or in further government positions.
Promotion to Associate Solicitor of Labor Relations.
Decision to retire.
TURNER: [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Kris Turner, a reference librarian at theUniversity of Wisconsin Law School Library. This is a 17-hour oral history featuring University of Wisconsin Law School faculty member James E. Jones, Jr. It was recorded between June 21, 2004, and February 14, 2005. The interviewer is UW faculty member June Weisberger.
[00:00:23] There are times in the original recordings, including the firstsession, where the tape begins recording after Professor Weisberger begins speaking. The oral history was completed over 12 separate interviews. Between each interview is a brief interlude signaling the end of the previous session and introducing the next one, including the date it was recorded. The first session recorded on June 21st, 2004, begins now.
WEISBERGER: [00:00:46] June 21, 2004. I am in the office of Professor Jim Jones,and I am going to be interviewing him for the University of Wisconsin's oral history project. Okay, Jim? I said we probably ought to do a straight chronology, unless you want to deviate from that, but where were you born, where did you start school?
JONES JR.: [00:01:09] You're going to have to guide just to get me talking,we've been here for three weeks.
WEISBERGER: [00:01:14] Well-
JONES JR.: [00:01:18] But it's so, you ... A great number of the things I havedone, the easiest thing to keep an orderly flow is to try to do it chronologically.
WEISBERGER: [00:01:28] Good.
JONES JR.: [00:01:29] It also is, I think, the quintessential way thathistorians ought to do stuff, rather than starting with their preconceptions, and then to go back and get the pieces and put them together, and nobody can understand.
JONES JR.: [00:01:40] So, you were asking me earlier about my autobiographyeffort. I have 1009 page draft, and it's chronological. How else would you [crosstalk [[00:[01:52]. Now, there's repetition in it because sometimes I'm talking about something and it's relevant in more than one year, and somebody needs to edit and put all of that together. I'm a lousy editor of my own stuff. But anyway, so, that's ideal because I can say.
[00:02:09] I was born on June 4, 1924, in Little Rock, Arkansas in a three-roomshotgun house with no indoor plumbing, running water, and electricity. At 1105 South Broadway, and it's virtually in the middle of town now right on the edge of MacArthur Park. Of course, not far from MacArthur Park. And the relevance of this, and this is going forth-
WEISBERGER: [00:02:37] Going forward.
JONES JR.: [00:02:38] ... forward to come backwards. I was invited to give afunded lecture at the University of Arkansas Law School at Little Rock the same year that young Governor Bill Clinton had been elected President. The Governor's mansion is about a mile and a half, say, south I think from MacArthur Park. Where I was born is about a mile west.
[00:03:20] When I was a little boy growing up, the law school ... no, thebuilding that was now the law school, the University of Arkansas, Little Rock, was the University of Arkansas Medical School, and rather than tear it down, they had refurbished this lovely old building, and they did a beautiful job. It's close to downtown.
[00:03:40] But MacArthur Park was off limits to Negros, it wasn't a place wecould go, so when I started my speech there, I said to the people there, I said, "Well, I just told you where I was born, right, how far it was and I never say, it was a longer trip from 1105 South Broadway to this lecturn then the young governor's trip from the governor's seat to the White House, then I gave my speech.
WEISBERGER:[00:04:13] Well that was very fitting.
JONES JR.: [00:04:22] All right, my mother had poor choice in husbands, so Iwas, she had two children by her first husband was my father who deserted us when I was 3 years old, she had a fourth husband when I was 13, 12 or 13, my grandmother basically raised me because my mother worked, we had to have two incomes to make a living, she had a high school education, so did her sisters, but none of their brothers.
[00:04:55] My grandmother was three-quarters Cherokee, and my grandfather, herhusband, was born a slave and was the master's illegitimate child, but he looked like him so there was no denial, and he learned to read, write, and figure, so when Emancipation came, he could write and read, and so he ended up teaching Freedmen school, my grandmother was his second wife since his first wife died, and he was a widower with two children, and he married one of the big girls in his one room school, which was this quasi-squaw, whose father was a renegade Cherokee, he wasn't going to no damn Oklahoma.
[00:05:36] So he settled in the hills of Tennessee and made brick and sold brickto make a living, and I don't know how many kids they had, and so this odd couple, my grandfather and his woman, had 10 children, and my mother was the youngest to really survive to adulthood.
[00:05:58] And Papa as he was called insisted that the girls go to school, theboys went to the fields and after the 8th or 9th grade because they could read, write, and figure, they wouldn't let you do anything else, you could do farm work, at least you'd know when you were being cheated, but the women went to high school because colored women didn't work in white folk's kitchens, and the reason was that his mother was an upstairs maid and they had, but they had this attitude, they both had these attitudes, and they brought up these kids, okay.
[00:06:33] In my hometown, they preached to young people the minority to theblack community, and Negroes were the only minorities, and the rest of it wasn't on their radar scale, but people and my grandmother and everybody else said, "Go to school, boy, and get an education. You don't want to be, grow up and be like your father or be like your uncles," et cetera. Education was the way up somewhere, and somewhere could be plumbing porter or school teacher or mail carrier or anything but the certain jobs that were reserved for blacks in the south.
[00:07:12] So when people asked me what was the motivation to get educated, Isay, "Well, in the community," and I was aware of the elders were always talking about go to school, that's the way, not to improve, and the schools were segregated, and there wasn't any business of arguing about it, integrated, and it's go to school, get educated, go get educated. And so as I went through school, I just really internalized that. The other thing that's from my upbringing is that grandma they were rural, and rural people had to do everything, right, the rural unit had to do whatever it was to keep the family going, right, so there weren't any boundaries about if you were stronger than the boys, right, and rather than them cutting the wood, they would do something else, she would cut the wood, if the boy could cut, so a part of that flowed over into my daughter says that the reason I was a feminist before you women discovered it was because I got raised by a bunch of women.
WEISBERGER:[00:08:25] Who were strong women.
JONES JR.: [00:08:26] But now the core of the family was my mother, no, mygrandmother, my mother, and my mother's two children because I was never anywhere until my grandmother died that I wasn't with my grandmother, but between marriages, my grandmother would grab her two grandchildren and move in with another sibling while my pretty youngest daughter got her act together before [inaudible [00:08:50], my mother worked and we did, you did what you do, so grandma had this notion, and it wasn't, she never knew those dead white folks that you footnote this, you were capable of doing so-and-so, you were obliged to make your contribution, somebody couldn't do what, but they could do the best that they could do, so it's like from each to each, I never knew that she ever read any book but the Bible, and so she should've been, well, if you think about it, that's kind of tribal and it's kind of rural and it would be natural that, what do you mean? You know, get out here and do so-and-so, you were good at that.
[00:09:36] And that carried into all sorts of things I did, all the way throughhigh school. I was always getting dragged into something I didn't really wanna do. But they would put the monkey on my back, right? You can do it! So that sort of permeates much of my life activities. If you think about the service kind of. Kept thinking about all those sorts of things I have ended up doing. And the explanation that leads to me is, where the hell did I get conned into that. And I say "Grandma cursed me."
WEISBERGER: [00:10:17] Oh bless you.
JONES JR.: [00:10:18] Well, if you want to. But the title of my memoir, if itever goes anywhere, is Hattie's Boy. And that's my grandmother's name.
WEISBERGER: [00:10:31] That's a lovely tribute.
JONES JR.: [00:10:32] Well there's 'Hattie's Boy: The life and times of atransitional negro.' And that's..
WEISBERGER: [00:10:39] That's the theme.
JONES JR.: [00:10:40] The story is, well, if you look there and you look, andyou think and reflect on the sequence of the events through my lifetime and our country and all sorts of things, and do the numbers and figure out my age, right? I'm just old enough to be drafted for World War 2, right? The GI Bill, the whole sequence, and where I end up in the later years I remember the revolution and the change that brings the two of us together is I'm in the middle of the hurricane, if you wanted, the eye of the hurricane, and the United States Department of Labor in the division of legislation and solicitor's office, trying to come up with something to meet these new needs. Would end up in there during the Kennedy-Johnson period, where Goldberg works in the department, sort of the brain trust, part of the brain trust of the Kennedy-Johnson social revolution.
[00:11:50] Pat Moynihan was a miscellaneous special assistant to the secretaryof labor when I first met him. That man called Dr. Moynihan, right? He was just another joker around there with no particular portfolio, and you know the dynamics of what was going on between that and justice, the Katzenbach was over justice of legal council one time. It was really a real funnel of people whose names became significant.
WEISBERGER: [00:12:19] Right, people and legislation is still critical. Whatabout grade school, high school? Are there some things that you recall either positively or negatively about it?
JONES JR.: [00:12:36] I'll let you put the spin on. First of all, between brokenhomes if you were to call that, right? We were going back and forth. I went to grade school in Chicago Heights, I went to grade school in Detroit, I went to high school in Detroit, at different periods between ages 6 and 18, that's when you finish, right? So we were bobbling back and forth across the Mason-Dixon line, so I would be in integrated school for the beginning part of a year, since I was a split. And I would end up back south, or vice versa. So there are stories.
[00:13:26] Most of my elementary education was in Little Rock. I first startedschool in parochial kindergarten. A segregated, a negro school, from kindergarten through high school, in the middle of Little Rock. Where all the nuns were white, and the priest was white, and all the students were black. The church was just like the rest of the world. And the students were miscellaneous colors and the mixture, right? It was cheap, sort of free school for working mothers, because if you were diaper trained and you could pay your 75 cents a month per kid, the Catholic Nuns would take you in kindergarten. There's still at least one person that was in kindergarten with me.
WEISBERGER: [00:14:25] That you're still in touch with?
JONES JR.: [00:14:27] We were in the same high school class too. And she's thesecretary of, there is a high school alumni association, and they have classes, and the class of 1942 was dwindling. And she's not the only one there, at least half a dozen of us who were known since kindergarten.
[00:14:51] Okay so. When I first went to public school, there was 2 weeks inLittle Rock and then we went off to Chicago Heights to move in with an uncle. The Chicago Heights, way out there, there were so very few blacks, as a matter of fact. And there were only four in my grade school, me and my sister and our two 'cousins'. And they were my uncle's wife's children, they weren't really related to us.
[00:15:26] This story relates to something else about my attitude about law.
[00:15:31] We moved back after a year in Chicago Heights, we moved back toLittle Rock. And we went to public school, and I got sent to the public school that my mother went to when she was a girl. And it was old and it stunk like urine and linseed oil. And it was about 10 blocks away from where we lived. And I kept coming home complaining to my grandmother about this school that stunk like pee. And 'why can't I go to that school down on right avenue?' And she kept telling me 'you can't go there, that's a white school'. Until finally, with some trepidation, she didn't dispute much, she's a grandma, she was out of reach of her back hand. I'd say 'Grandma, I can see that school that's white. But you know what? It wasn't always that way, they painted it. Those bricks underneath there were red bricks.' You know the playground was grass, and the equipment worked, and was fenced in. And so she had to try and explain to a 7 year old or whatever it was, why I couldn't go to that school, because I was not a white person. When the school I had attended before there weren't but 4 blacks in the whole bloody school. Try to explain that.
[00:16:51] The law is, we go to Saint Louis and we can change. I said 'What?Alright.' And when Kress started talking about the indeterminacy of the law and you know, where the hell did these guys come from? What? I mean that's new?
[00:17:15] Okay. We went to school in Detroit, in grade school. Then in 1939 Iwas in high school in Detroit, same thing, back and forth, broken home. But in school I was a good student, and one of the things that I never understood, and I don't understand now, when I was in Chicago Heights school, they kept moving me, I moved three times before I finally ended up in the class that I stayed until the year was over. I had no notion of why every time I got settled in they moved me around. They were trying to find where I fit, because I had been with the nuns so I could read, and write my name, and so forth. So the word was that I was 'smart.' Went back to Little Rock, been gone a year, instead of putting me in the second grade, they put me in the top half of the first grade. So I'm behind where I should've been if I had stayed at home, by the way.
[00:18:27] And right away, it started again. He's smart, he's smart. So theyskipped me. Then I went to summer school, they kept saying smart. What in the hell are they talking about, you know? This business. You got sort of identified and it stayed with me forever, I was always getting dragged around this notion, and I couldn't understand what they mean. You aren't getting this? If I can get this anybody ought to get that. And the family, so I did well in school. And we can figure out what that relates to. And as a matter of fact you can go through the whole testing thing. I remember taking the first intelligence test, I think I was in the 3rd grade. It was hot as hell, and it was long, and there was the cutest little girl across the way. I spent about as much time flirting with her as I had on the piece of paper.
[00:19:35] Well that factored in, and some of the teachers got on my motherabout what she ought to do to encourage this kid. It stuck me with doing the summer school once again, it was over. I told my mother 'I'm not ever going to summer school no more, ever. And if you send me, I'm gonna play hooky.' But anyway, that factors into some of the things in the segregated high school, in the best high school in the state of Arkansas for Negros. Paul Dunbar High School in Little Rock. And it has an accelerated track record, by the way. One of our graduates was a PhD graduate from the University of Illinois, the research thing, he wrote a book on us, and demonstrated that the college attendance and advanced degree track record of the Dunbar graduates was better than the graduates of the central high school, which was the bad high school that all the ruckus was about, about all those kids, Ernie Greene, who was the leader of the Little Rock Nine, his mother was a school teacher, and so was his aunt and his uncle was a well made mail clerk.
[00:20:56] They had the best jobs for blacks, and they were people. A matter offact, Ernie's mother taught high school economics and she was pregnant with Ernie when my sister was in her class. His aunt was one of the teachers, who was a tough teacher, in our high school, and I was one of her favorites. Now I was not the, I don't know how you put it, I guess you put it the same way, I wasn't much different in high school than any common man here. Although I talked -
WEISBERGER: [00:21:35] You mean I would recognize you as a younger person?
JONES JR.: [00:21:37] I talked less, fortunately. Because I had the uniquetalent of always saying the wrong things at the right time. The students were delighted, that I was saying what people were thinking. And I was stupid, and I looked around to find that somebody's gonna say something, right? And I'd get impatient and I'd say it, I ended up getting elected for stuff too, by the way.
[00:22:03] The other thing about high school is that if you don't have goodgrades, you weren't eligible for certain stuff, so I ended up being editor of the school newspaper and president of senior class, vice president of student council, and some other stuff. And I didn't wanna do any of this. I had an older sister, you see, and the class, the '42 class, the mid year was small. So there was a limited number of boys, and the business that they boys are supposed to do. I don't know why the hell wouldn't you ask for Anne Jordan to be head of the paper.
[00:22:41] I was always being dragged, and they would stick my sister, somebody,Ms. Graveley or Ms. [inaudible [00:22:46] and they would always call my sister and so she would go home and tell mother. And she'd be laying on me. And this is the Hattie thing, by the way. Why should I do it? Because they think you can and you were chosen. So, hell, let 'em choose, I wanted to play football. But also I was very religious, I could pray the hinges off the door. I was a boy scout. I was serious enough about religion, I promised one of them evangelist-type of preachers in the church that I was attending with my grandmother that I would read the bible every night.
WEISBERGER: [00:23:33] And you did?
JONES JR.: [00:23:33] Well as a chapter it started, I said alright. It got downto a verse, in my little 9 years old hand. And for 10 years I read the bible every night. I'd scribble in drawings. In the Navy -
WEISBERGER: [00:23:46] And you still do it?
JONES JR.: [00:23:47] And get a flashlight out and get the book out and read oneverse. But I was also struggling with religion during that period, so I deserted the family church, which was an African-American Methodist and Episcopal, because they always squabbled about money, and it offended me. I was already high in the Sunday school class with the college boys. Landon Smith college was associated with Wesley Chapel. It's the family church.
[00:24:22] And it was just three blocks away. Still is. The land sort ofexpanded around it as the church grew. And my sister went there and two of my cousins. And that's a different story. I was in the Sunday school class with the college boys, because I knew a bunch of stuff about the bible, silly things. And the Sunday school teacher was my uncle. My mother's middle sister's husband, he wasn't blood. And we didn't like each other. [inaudible [00:25:01] And he didn't know as much of the bible as I did.
WEISBERGER: [00:25:06] I was gonna say that, that could do it.
JONES JR.: [00:25:06] But he was a fixture in the church, and between the two, Iquit the family church and became Episcopalian, it was after grandma died. And by the time I was 17 I could just go to church and have high mass. Very small, the preacher was intellectual, he was a Canadian. The graduate in the family with a fabulous family, and he was the supposed scout, troop leader. Actually his two boys got in when I got involved in scouting and all sorts of.
WEISBERGER: [00:25:49] Sounds like you were a very very busy teenager.
JONES JR.: [00:25:56] I was packed in, and I worked. My mother threw me a keywhen I was 12 years old, ride or die. Momma left a little nickel and dime and told me to stock it up and move into other people's houses, and she did. I got to run an establishment. I was bellyaching about something that I wanted to do with her permission, and she threw me a key across the room, and said there, you can do anything you're trying to, but always let me know where you are so I don't worry.
[00:26:36] So I've been working ever since. And this relates to the machine, youknow I was gonna come to college. I was always encouraged to go to college. And always told, if you go, the likelihood that we can help you go doesn't exist. Now junior college was pretty, you know the high school, but it was from 7th grade, to two years of junior college. But in the middle of Little Rock, there was Philander Smith college, Arkansas Baptist College, Dunbar Junior College, across the street north a little was Shorter College. The colleges were all religious schools, and Philander was the best of the lot, and the second best college for blacks in the state. Because the State University for Negroes was 34 miles away in Pine Bluff, Arkansas.
[00:27:37] So if when I was gonna go to college, I didn't know what the hellthey wanted. Literally I didn't know what going to college meant, but I'm big man on campus by now, you know I'm going to college. When it got close to time for me to go to college, I said, how do you got to college? I wonder where I need to go to college? I'll go to Philander Smith and go to the front office and ask for Mrs. Harris. You go on to Arkansas State, I don't know what you think, a lot of people went down here, my cousins were here too.
[00:28:14] But I was embarrassed about asking, I didn't know it was so easy anda dumb question. So I figured a way, I know, I went to the library once and asked the librarian, this was the high school librarian, I said 'Do you have some books on colleges and so forth?' And librarians love people who want to know something.
WEISBERGER: [00:28:41] Love when people ask questions.
JONES JR.: [00:28:41] Yes! So she said let's go see. Well I'm interested inchemistry, so she got me some bulletins and they have instructions about how you apply. Alright, well two things came out of that. One was school in the next state, Lincoln University was considered the second best black school in the United States for chemistry. Second to Howard. Well Howard was in another part of the world at this point in my life. Lincoln and Philander Smith were in the same athletic league.
WEISBERGER: [00:29:20] So you knew about it.
JONES JR.: [00:29:21] I played football in high school and Lincoln had been downto play Philander and we had free tickets to Philander and stuff. So I knew about that school and it was just right up the road. Jefferson City for St. Louis, and we had been through St. Louis every time we went anywhere to Chicago and Detroit. So, long story short, ultimately when I decided to go to college, I applied to Lincoln. So I finished in a little over a year and I went to work in the ditch.
WEISBERGER: [00:29:59] To save money for college?
JONES JR.: [00:30:00] Save money? To make money!
WEISBERGER: [00:30:01] To make money.
JONES JR.: [00:30:08] How am I gonna? It was just before we got into World WarII, about the same time. I finished January '42, and you know Pearl Harbor was December '41. America was gearing up anyway, the supply chain for the allies. They were building what I thought was an Ammunition Dump, turned out to be more than that ultimately in the war. And a whole city grew up out there during the war, Jacksonville, Arkansas. And when Jacksonville just started, they were building, and I went out there and got a job in the ditch with old men. For 40 cents an hour, the new minimum wage. That was a ton of money! And we were working 10 hours a day 7 days a week. When it didn't rain. So I went to work, left 3 o'clock in the morning, went to get breakfast, pack a lunch, and get a ride 25 miles over there. Pull up to work, work 10 hours, and come back. That lasted about 3 months, long story short, I saved as much as I can save.
[00:31:28] So when September came, I went off to college, with what little moneyI had saved. I finished 3rd in the class. My chem lab partner finished right behind me. Either we were second and third, or we were third and fourth, whatever.
WEISBERGER: [00:31:52] Right up there.
JONES JR.: [00:31:53] First was a girl. Anyway, the reason I mention him, heended up going to Harvard medical school. And I was the better science student. He also was in the Air Force, the 99th. Which was also surprising as an asthmatic he was the most -
WEISBERGER: [00:32:09] Take two of the first take with Jim Jones and JuneWeisberger interviewing him.
JONES JR.: [00:32:20] I went off to Lincoln with train fare, a round tripticket, and about 125 dollars. It cost 360 dollars a year to go to school, out of state fee and all. I had to have a job or I was gonna be toast. But I had enough money to pay first semester tuition fees, books, room and board, for a month. Room and board was $22.50 a month. Now keep in mind, the minimum wage had just come in. And most jobs weren't covered by it. My step-father was waiting tables, he had a high school education too. He was waiting tables at a club outside of Little Rock. Put cardboard in his shoes. 50 cents a day in tips. And who was tipping? Very few people. My mother was a beautician. A wash and a press I think maybe was 25 cents, a haircut was a quarter. So if you're working in someone else's barber shop, and they're getting their cut, maybe she was getting 15 cents out of a quarter, for whatever. A Marcel was 50 cents, you can get the idea. So living was extremely marginal. We were extremely poor, and we were so poor, I didn't realize we were poor. That poor. I thought everybody ... I knew everybody was differences, but it wasn't unusual for ... I wore Levi's and my hair cut off and T-shirts to high school in '39, '40 which nobody did.
[00:34:24] And, one of the teachers sent for my sister and asked her, and shewas in junior college, and said, why is your brother wearing those cut-off overalls and underwear shirts?
[00:34:35] And, my sister was so funny, she was too embarrassed to tell her,'cause he doesn't have other clothes. I had some Sunday clothes, jacket and real trousers, and a shirt, and a tie, and so on, but that was for going to parties and weddings and to church. Right? But, that didn't keep me from doing. That was right in the middle of everything else . It wasn't always easy ... Anyways, I went off to college, and I was gonna major in-
WEISBERGER: [00:35:12] Chemistry.
JONES JR.: [00:35:13] And, I was gonna major in chemistry and math. And, workand play football. And, I got interviewed by the intake person at the center, and I told him what I was gonna do. And, he said, you can't do that. And, I said, you mean there's a rule against it? He said, no, it's just too much for anybody to ... you just can't do that much.
[00:35:35] So, I said, well, I'm gonna try. And, then I told him, I said, I gota month. I'm paid up for a month. If I don't have a job, I'm outta here in a month. While I'm here, I'm gonna do everything. I signed up for everything. I went all over that place of the school, slopping hogs, cleaning dormitories, downtown at the hotels, at the barbershops, trying to find a job. Nothing.
[00:36:05] So, I went out for football, was down on the football field and thisyoung chemistry professor ... he was my, I was sitting in his class in his freshman chemistry. Now, the freshman chemistry class for majors didn't have more than 12 people, mostly pre-med folk. A few people. There was a large freshman class for under-class freshman for women and people who had to have chemistry, mostly Home Ec. So, there was this other chemistry class, and the lab needed a lab assistant.
WEISBERGER: [00:36:39] Oh.
JONES JR.: [00:36:41] So, anyway, the first week or so we were at Lincoln, wewere just constantly taking tests which I now believe that we were really not just entrance but intelligence tests. And, if you think about it, see, black kids coming from all sorts of miscellaneous segregated schools. They had no way to really tell what's honors from this high school versus that high school. What did these kids really know? And, so they had all this effort to try and assess them, so they could guide them and put them in.
[00:37:16] Anyways, we were down in the football field, and I laid down, and thecoach laughed at me, and said, we don't have any water boy clothes small enough for you. [inaudible [00:37:25] I don't know ... the second week, I guess, there. And, Professor Taylor [00:37:35] came down and said, and asked the coach, can I speak to James Jones? And, the coach said, who? He said, James Jones. He said, is he here? I'm standing right over there. So, he walked over and said, Mr. Jones, and I said, yes sir. He said, are you still looking for a job? I said, yeah, doing what? And, he said, lab assistant freshman chemistry class. And, I broke out in a bitter laugh. I said, I've been all over this place trying to find a job, any kind of job, and you offer me a job I can't do.
[00:38:12] He said, we think you can. I said, when do I start?
[00:38:15] So, he said, after class tomorrow. So, to make a long story short,it's too late. This paid tuition and fee waiver.
WEISBERGER: [00:38:29] Oh!
JONES JR.: [00:38:29] And, $25 a month. We'd call that an assistantship now, right?
WEISBERGER: [00:38:35] Right.
JONES JR.: [00:38:36] I've got my $60 back and put it in the postal thing. Roomand board was $22.50. After paying room and board, I had $2.50 left. I was rich. A haircut's a quarter, a hamburger's a dime, and a Coke's a nickel. Fifteen cents to go to the movies. I washed my own Levi's. I'm wearing Levi's in college then. My graduation suit and my other clothes hung up until you got ready to go to the dance or something or other.
[00:39:08] Now, you ready? I made the football team. Unbelievable. You talkabout a success? I did it all! Man! When I went home for Christmas, so schools let out early and started late, so that you could clear the transportation system for the troops.
WEISBERGER: [00:39:29] Oh, I forgot about that.
JONES JR.: [00:39:32] So, we went home a little early and weren't coming backuntil the middle of January for the rump session of the first semester. They had to work that out. So, while I was home, since I was 1A, I had a fallback, so always have Plan B. If I had wiped out, I had a month of school, and I was going back home and punch my ticket to go to the military, and pre-buy my education which is what I was gonna due in the first instance, but it was the CCC that I was gonna go to. I knew a guy who went to the CCC, and he had taken shorthand and typing. He was the company clerk. It paid $50 a month. I was gonna sign up for three years and pre-buy my education.
[00:40:13] $50 a month? Money? You got room and board and $50? I would have beenrich then. No way I wasn't gonna save at least half of that and still have plenty of party money.
[00:40:26] Anyway, I went down to see the draft board people and find out whatmy chances were for finishing out the year. And, the little lady there said, the year? The academic year, I told her. She looked at my number and said, son, you won't finish out the month. This entire sequence of numbers will be called up before the middle of January.
[00:40:54] So, she said, you'd be wasting your train ticket to go back tocollege. Have to turn around and come home. So, the vice-principal of my high school with a PhD was in the new Navy as a petty officer. Chief Petty officer. This guy with a PhD should have been a ...
WEISBERGER:[00:41:13] An officer.
JONES JR.: [00:41:14] But, the new Navy in June of 1942 issued an order thatsaid, we'll let Negroes do something other than be servants. The right ones. They didn't say that. So, they had people like my [inaudible] he was young enough to be jail bait, so he went in the Navy. And, he was a recruiter for the Negroes in the southwest. The right ones with a high school education plus to go into the Navy. Be sure you have the right ones 'cause we have to prove it wasn't a mistake to let us in. So, he persuaded me that I ought to come to the Navy. Not just me. A couple of my friends. A couple of my friends who were in kindergarten with me also went in the Navy. They were in high school, we were in high school class-
WEISBERGER:[00:42:05] Right. Same group.
JONES JR.: [00:42:07] Same group. He said, look, you go in the Navy, you canlearn a trade and when you come out, you can do something other than wash dishes and dig ditches. Those were the kind of things that Negroes were usually restricted to. Labor. That's for me. Going in the military, they're just gonna teach you how to kill more efficiently than you could learn down on Ninth Street in the black neighborhood, that's right. In the Army, rather. So, I went in the Navy.
[00:42:36] And, I was sworn in the Navy on the 13th of January 1943. Schoolwould have started again on the 15th. And, I went to Great Lakes Segregated Naval Training School, and while I was up there, I got a pink slip. I was on probation. They didn't have any way of dealing with veterans. So, I had two incompletes and a C in algebra. Me and another football player, the algebra teacher couldn't get over it that the two people leading his math class. I had a 96 average. The other guy had a 94. He was an engineering student. That these two football players were leading my class. Never in the history of me teaching this class have two football ... he gave a test every week, so when I wasn't there. I wasn't there for the test, I wasn't there for the final, I got zero. And, he added up the numbers, and it came out. That's the only C on my undergraduate transcript, by the way.
[00:43:39] In chemistry I got a B and that was okay. I was going to makestraight As in chemistry or die. As long as I made As. I found out after I got that job that there was one for the second, for the sophomore year, the junior year, and the senior year. If I kept my grades up in chemistry, I was gonna ride right through college. And, I was ... I got up in the morning anywhere from 3 A.M. to 5 in the morning to study chemistry. And, my approach to studying was I'm gonna know everything in this chapter. And, if I don't understand it, I memorize it. So, my first class was 8 o'clock in the morning, and I ...
WEISBERGER:[00:44:25] And, it worked.
JONES JR.: [00:44:27] I carried that approach to education all the way throughcollege. Not just get by but everything that's in it. Now, you aren't gonna know everything. Right? When you come to law school, the first year, try to ... But, that was my attitude. The other business I told you the business, you can, so, therefore, you're obliged to ... that kind of [inaudible [00:44:51] something.
[00:44:50] The reason I was gonna be a chemist is a black kid said it was toohard and the white people don't let you do that. Damn that they're gonna tell me what I can do. I wasn't gonna accept that. Well, that's hard-headed.
[00:45:09] So, we're gonna ... what do you mean? The other thing I guess I gotit from sports is that, you know, failure ... that's you know you fail that doesn't mean you're a failure. So, you can't do [inaudible [00:45:22], well, we tried. I can't play the piano either, right?. But, I had this business of ... so, I didn't ... a dumb question. I got over the business of being embarrassed. Nobody else gonna ask it. If they all understand it, and I don't, I'm gonna ask.
[00:45:40] So, these are attitudinal things, right? So, I found out much laterthat the reason they decided that I could do the chemistry thing is I aced the exams for the freshman class. I had scores that ... from this little lousy black high school. I had three months in college. [inaudible [00:46:05] getting ahead, but that's a different textbook.
[00:46:09] I blew the Navy scores, too, by the way. At least the white folkstold me that my test scores were in the 90 percentile. So, I got a chance to choose the service school that I would go to that was available to Negroes. And, one of them was at Hampton Institute to be an electrician. Well, that was that, I'm going back to college. So, I went to Hampton for four more months after my boot camp.
[00:46:31] It wasn't like college at Lincoln 'cause there must have been athousand black sailors and troops at Hampton and maybe a hundred women. But, anyways, I went to Hampton Institute for electricity and that chemistry added to, I knew everything in it. We had 16 weeks of examination, and I made 15 100s and a 90. So, they waived the final, and I finished rated.
[00:46:58] They sent me off to New York where they would let me work as anelectrician. Now, the Hampton Institute went all over the country to campaign with other naval captains at their stations. I won't let that Hampton boy, my Hampton boys come to your station unless you commit that they're gonna work at what they were trained. Now, [inaudible [00:47:24]. So, we all went to places where, and I was a repair electrician, and we went to New York for two years. Three months of it I was on a ship. The rest of it I was chief labor in a shipyard.
[00:47:39] There's a whole story about how I got on stage at a canteen, and Igot introduced to a world I never knew of opera and theater. I met this wonderful girl that I fell in love with like two tons of brick. She was in college finishing her bachelor's degree. She was a stage door hostess. But, it was a new world. And, a bunch of us were refugees, guys from base were refugees from college, right? And, we're both into these girls who are hosting and ... well, one of them went to NYU, so didn't fraternize with them, and ... spoke with them from hostessing, but that didn't [inaudible [00:48:26] if you were down at that college. So, we hung out down there at Emerson Square, right, and had a whole clack of friends which was part of the education of this dumb country boy from Louisville.
WEISBERGER:[00:48:44] Well, you were no longer in that category.
JONES JR.: [00:48:49] But, it was really wonderful. I went back to New Yorkafter the war. I'm skipping a lot of pieces, but ... it has to do with performance and grades and stuff like that and how people value that.
[00:49:02] I was in the fleet for a couple of ... almost two years, and I gotsent for by [inaudible [00:49:08] personnel. The Navy operated differently than the Army. And, he offered me the chance ... to come out of the fleet ... go back, I was a second class petty officer by then, go back to a first class seaman and go to Carnegie Mellon for a full year crash program and become an electrical engineer, four years to do five. And, with my degree, I would get a commission and be an officer and a gentleman in the Navy.
[00:49:35] See, at the tail end they decided to make some blacks, and theyopened some of the stuff, and then they started recruiting, and then they got all the records. I've never seen these things, but from what the guys told me about test scores and so forth. I just figured I was bright enough to be an officer, but just wasn't white enough. Okay.
WEISBERGER:[00:49:55] Okay, so what did you decide?
JONES JR.: [00:49:57] Are you kidding? When they sent for me, I put down mytoolbox and went in there to talk to these people about going. I said, chemist, electrical engineer, what the hell is the difference? This is another one of those things that they don't let us do. Not totally unrelated. I didn't care that much about chemistry. It was just a ... so, I said, oh, and one other thing I guess that I found out from my petty officer, my chief, when I was in boot camp, I had an array of tests, I had a functional one, a perfect on this math test which I thought ... I never even had trigonometry. But, I was taking high school algebra and chemistry, so the level of the test for across the nation was sort of legitimate to test us. And, I blew the curve.
[00:50:52] So, anyhow, I suppose that factored in to them keeping an eye on me,in this electrical, and this guy went to the electrical thing, look at this, he's one, right?
[00:51:03] So, I said, then what? Said, well, after four years of school, you'llgive us two-for-one. I said, you mean, I commit to staying in the Navy 8 years after I finish with ... He said, yes, with a smile. I said, I've already been in the fleet 2 years, that's 12, that's 14 years. You're talking about a career. I'd be a fool to come out after 14 years. Six more years, and you retire with a full pension. And, they said, yes, that's right.
[00:51:35] I said, let me out of here, and give me back my toolbox. I want toget out of this man's Navy as soon as the war's over and they will let me out. I wonder what if I had gone the other way
WEISBERGER:[00:51:50] Yeah, that was certainly a crossroads.
JONES JR.: [00:51:52] What was interesting was the Navy ... I was a borderlineinsubordinate, and I still had a big mouth. But, stuff that was obvious that somebody had to say something about after looking around for somebody else to say-
WEISBERGER:[00:52:09] There was no one.
JONES JR.: [00:52:10] Yeah. I would blurt out things, and it ... I guess that's... I don't know where that came from. Maybe it's genetic or something from the family, from Papa. I would say, ... my mother's brothers were troublemakers, 'cause they didn't like my father and they didn't know their place. What do you mean "my place"? We had this notion-
JONES JR.: [00:52:35] Well, the notion that they're equal. You got a problem,but I don't ... buy into that. Most of them went to jail at one time or another. I'm the first one ever to go to college in the whole tribe. Male. Not female. My sister got a Master's degree from the University of Arkansas, Little Rock.
WEISBERGER:[00:52:58] Well, what happened when you said no to the two-for-one deal?
JONES JR.: [00:53:02] I went back to my toolbox and swore an oath and I had togo overseas. I went to Guam, and I was in Guam for I don't know 9, 10 months or so. It extended my tour by 3 months 'cause these people were bellyaching about being away from their family for a year. I was in the Navy for 3, almost 3 and 1/2 years and had 3 leaves.
[00:53:23] Well, when I came out of the Navy ... oh, by the way, I saved half ofmy salary while I was in the Navy. Now, when they sent me to go on things, and we were going to the South Pacific, the war was over supposedly in Europe. And, I gave the war bonds that I'd been saving to my mother to pay off the mortgage on the house. They don't like colleges, and you may not get out of wherever you're going in the Pacific since it was heating up.
[00:53:53] But, going ... I left New York and went west and ultimately to Guam,I saved all of my salary except for $20 a month. So, I came out of the military, I had about enough money to go back to college. Go back to real college like that. Even got the GI Bill and all that stuff. I was really rich. We got a muster-out pay for $300, and I had the maximum GI Bill. 48 months, full ride.
WEISBERGER:[00:54:30] So, what did you do with all these riches and options andGI Bill?
JONES JR.: [00:54:33] I hustled back to New York chasing after my true love andwent to night school at NYU and worked in the factory at night trying to get in NYU as a freshman when they weren't even giving out applications. I had this scheme that I was gonna go to general education and take a full load and ace all the courses and ask for a transfer, and it worked.
WEISBERGER:[00:55:02] Good strategy.
JONES JR.: [00:55:02] Oh, yeah. I mean it worked, but my romance fell apart, andI got dumped. Then, well, New York was not really ... I went to New York chasing a dream. And, I figured I would go back to college where you don't have to work all day, wearing those crazy overalls, chasing the subway at night. I thought of going to Nebraska where I my lost high school chem partner was. He was in Nebraska. He'd been in the Air Force. He went there pre-med. He was doing great. Matter of fact, he finished Nebraska Phi Beta Kappa and went on to Harvard Medical School.
[00:55:51] But, to go to Nebraska and all that I'd have to explain Lincoln and Isaid, I'm gonna go next semester to college. So, I packed up my junk and hit the train and went back to Jefferson City and just went into the front office and said, I'm back! It was so ... what have you got to do to pick up where you left off, what about these incompletes, and ...
[00:56:17] By that time I had lost my religion, I wasn't gonna be a chemist. Ithought blowing up the world, who needed another hard scientist. So, I was gonna be a journalist, somebody said you could major in journalism. So, courses, what? Pick some, everything you can get your arms around. So, I went back to college.
WEISBERGER:[00:56:40] And, you took everything.
JONES JR.: [00:56:45] Full load. And, they said, major in something you like,are good at, or both. So, I decided to major in government as they called it. I refuse because I know in political science there are other courses there called government. It was everything just to make up poli sci because the guy that was supposed to be the toughest teacher, and all demanding and such, I don't want an easy ride, I want to learn.
WEISBERGER:[00:57:09] It sounds like you.
JONES JR.: [00:57:14] Best teacher I ever had in my life. The first year, we hada little fight. I missed his class a couple of weeks. And, in the middle of lecture, he stops and says, Mr. Jones, you cut my class for [inaudible [00:57:28] This is not the first time you've cut. I said, Dr. Miller, I didn't cut. I was away on a track trip. He said, track trip? You the manager. I said, no, I run. He said, athletes don't major in my department. And, I said, I play football, too. And, the war was on.
[00:57:49] By the time of my junior/senior ... I went back to Lincoln andfinished in 3 years. Took a full load, every summer school and everything. By the time of my junior or whatever it was after a year, he hired me as his teaching assistant. $25 a month. And, I graded and did the job. And, he kept up with my average better than I did. He was always bragging. I became one of "Miller's Boys." At least 2 of us, 3, 2 before me, went to this university as a grad student in poli sci at the law school.
[00:58:29] I had no intention of going to law school. I stumbled into laborrelations. I told you law
WEISBERGER:[00:58:35] You're still at Lincoln?
JONES JR.: [00:58:36] Yeah, I'm going to graduate school. I'm gonna go on tosomeplace, you know, what are you gonna do next? I had discovered unions. I had tried to organize one, and I didn't know what I was doing.
WEISBERGER:[00:58:50] And, this was back ...
JONES JR.: [00:58:53] This was back in Little Rock. I got fired when I ... Ithought I had it all worked out, and I went down, and I was gonna go down and make the demand for pay increases for us [inaudible [00:59:03] 12 or 15 black dudes that worked, that just thought I was ... I started as a pot washer but I hanged in the kitchen. And, I ended up being the salad boy. From the lowest job to the top job.
[00:59:17] But, see, I could cook. The cook's the seventh ... make a pie, bone aham. I'd been watching Grandma all my life, you hung around the kitchen, and I worked in the restaurants when I was 15 years old, the black restaurants. So, I could put together meals and so forth. And, pay me $12.50 a week, $50 a month, and all you could eat. And, discount for credit.
[00:59:48] We worked twelve hours a day, four days a week, 15 hours onWednesday, and 18 hours on Saturday.
JONES JR.: [00:59:57] For minimum wage. Anyways ... [crosstalk [01:[00:02] I gotfired. I made the demand for pay increase, and so forth, and they fired me.
[01:00:06] I had it all worked out - when we stop work on their anniversary, thewhole place would have to stop, they couldn't wash the dishes, somebody thinking... and all those dudes did that were learning something, saying "I owe the company money," blah, blah, blah, all these reasons why they couldn't. One guy quit with me.
WEISBERGER:[01:00:30] With you.
JONES JR.: [01:00:31] He also went to college. He went to Howard as anarchitect. He was in the military. Anyways, so after I got out, this was '47. I go back to school in January '47, three years after I left. Hey,-
HERTZBERG: [01:00:51] I'm Steve Hertzberg. You may not-
WEISBERGER:[01:00:54] ... continued.
JONES JR.: [01:00:56] I bumped into the editing process. A journalism teacheredited one of my poems, and they published it when I was out of town, and it was totally ruined. So, I was kind of in a tree. And, she took me for a long walk, and we talked about the process of journalism and writing and so forth. And, I concluded that I didn't reaaly have much to say, and I sure wasn't going to be trying to please somebody who's gonna publish stuff who who didn't even know what I was talking about. So, that wasn't gonna work, so, now what I'd do?
[01:01:26] Couldn't be a preacher.
[01:01:28] So, unions was ... everybody was screaming at these dumb unions withall this power, and they were misusing it. They didn't know what they were doing. And, this is pre-Taft-Hartley. This is '47. So, I got more interested, and I started saying, that's the kind of stuff I was trying to do back going when we were working and I got the notion that what the churches were doing wrong ... they had whole jobs, squabbling about jobs, they be doing some of the stuff these guys are doing. I'm too moral to be a preacher, but I could do that. So, I'll get educated to do some of that.
[01:02:03] And, then the thing about it said, you don't know any black peopledoing that. Well, that's another, it's like a being a chemist or an engineer. So, what? I'm gonna get in work, I'm for working. I'm going to go over. So, I went and got some stuff from Illinois on those relations. I don't remember what else I got. And, I was thinking well, I know, I'm gonna get educated to do that.
[01:02:25] So, I was gonna take ... I'm finishing in January, so I was gonnawait til September and I'd get a job for the rest of it. But, the chemistry chair of the department who was well known on campus, said, Mr. Jones, can you come back to my office? Come up here a minute. And, his tone of voice was ... damn, I don't know what to do, I hadn't had any contact with him since, so when I went to his office and sat down. He literally cussed me out. I never ... this mild old man. He never forgave me for leaving chemistry. He told me that.
WEISBERGER:[01:03:03] He must have loved chemistry.
JONES JR.: [01:03:05] Well, he was chair of the department. He said, you tookthat mind and went over there in that soft garbage stuff and now you lazy, S.O.B., you don't want to go right on to ... I hear you're not going to graduate school right away. You're gonna fool around and play until ... big excuse. He just ripped me ... boy, I didn't even know he still knew I was still on campus. When I left there I was really, I had to say, he's right, I'm sick of this grind. So-
TURNER: [01:03:39] This concludes the first interview of the oral history. Thesecond interview conducted on June 22, 2004, begins now.
WEISBERGER:[01:03:54] Professor James Jones for the Oral History Project, and itis Tuesday, the 22nd of June, 2004. We're doing this interview in his office.
WEISBERGER:[01:04:06] Okay, Jim, I think as of yesterday, we got towards the endof your college career.
JONES JR.: [01:04:12] I can tell you exactly where we stopped.
[01:04:16] I just left Lincoln University to go to graduate school inChampaign-Urbana for labor-industrialal relations. Since Wisconsin still was in the old traditional labor economics. Though they had started the Industrial Relations Research Institute. It was just that, it was a research institute not degree granting. And, it's first head was a young lawyer named Robben Fleming. One of Nate Feinsinger's protgs. You recall Robben came back here as chancellor and then he went on to Illinois to teach and went on to Michigan, and when he retired, he was president of the University of Michigan. And, as I understand it, Robben is still alive. And, his son, Jim Fleming, you listen to on public radio.
WEISBERGER:[01:05:08] Right. [crosstalk [01:05:09]
JONES JR.: [01:05:10] I went off to Illinois January of 1950. I was so naveabout stuff, and this is the reason that integration is so important. It's being on the same communication link. I looked at the stuff they had for assistance, etc., and they had scholarships and research assistants. And, I looked at research assistants, and said "what on earth could I possibly do as a graduate from this school I was leaving?" You know, good school and all that, but research in what? I don't know from nothing about research. And, it said that it was a job. Well, nobody is gonna hire me for that. The other said on the basis of scholarships, scholastic, so forth, was a scholarship, so I applied for that. I didn't get it. I was listed as an alternate. The first alternate on the list. I don't think I found that out until ...
[01:06:15] I got accepted, went, I still had a little GI Bill left, at leastenough to make my first semester. So, I went there figuring I would ... like I had always, figured if they had some work around there that folks could do, I could. And, I had that money. I'm still ... I got a bank account now. Train fare and eating money and so forth than what I started with when I got out of the military. And, being prudent, I had never spent. Though I had a real fancy wardrobe that I never wore - but I hadn't spent it.
[01:06:56] So, anyways, I went down there that first semester. Moved into asegregated housing and hooked up with some guys in there and figured out work part-time waiting tables [inaudible]. We did luncheon thing for $1.50 and a free meal, and the evening thing, the same thing, and you know, you do that 2 or 3 times a week, you're cooking along, right?
[01:07:22] Anyway, in the middle of the first semester, the director of theinstitute William Chalmers from whom I was taking a course said to me, Jim, why didn't you apply for an assistantship? And, I told him the story I just told you. I didn't know what the heck that was. It said work, the other one said money. And, research assistant, I didn't know what the heck I could do, what in the world could I do? He said, why don't you apply for it for next semester. I did.
WEISBERGER:[01:07:57] And, no doubt you got it?
JONES JR.: [01:07:59] I got the assistantship, and my classmate was ArnoldRobert Weber, who went on to be all-world everything. And Arnie and I finished first and second in the graduating class of August 1950. And I used to say that he's one of two smartest guys I've ever known. And then I say we finished first and second, and they say well there he goes again bragging, and I say there weren't but two in the graduating class. (laughs) August of 51 right? But my, so I worked on Illini City and if you could find a volume, you opened up the front of it and they list all the researchers.
WEISBERGER:[01:08:42] Mm-hmm (affirmative)- And there you are.
JONES JR.: [01:08:43] James Jones. Anyway, I'm fussy about being James E. Jones,Jr. because if you just use James Jones, you ... However, in 1996 they finally decided I was a distinguished alum and they invited me back down to Illinois for the ceremony, 1996.
WEISBERGER:[01:09:02] A few years after you had finished.
JONES JR.: [01:09:05] A few years after I had been, director of a competinggraduate program, head of a government's think tank and industrial relations in Washington and the chief lawyer for our area of stuff for the Labor Department to the extent that it existed. Anyway-
WEISBERGER:[01:09:23] Was that a good experience that graduated school programin Illinois?
JONES JR.: [01:09:28] It was fabulous. It was for me, actually ... I was aboutto tell you, I'm the first black o graduate in their program, which they discovered and I discovered in 1996 when they [crosstalk [01:09:44]. I knew that there were two who had attended before me, but they didn't get, they left the ABD and I wasn't going to get out of that chair till I finished that damn thesis. I figured too many people leave and never get it done. I'm going to sit here and as a matter of fact, I got a call from one of the young research associate professors. I went to Washington and there's a national director of the Case Analysis Division of the Waste Stabilization Board. The call [inaudible [01:10:11] was out, and since I was one of his research devils, this is a guy that could read my handwriting, as a matter of fact.
JONES JR.: [01:10:20] Took my phone 47, that thing was called then or whateverwas in my application with him in his coat pocket. And I got a call in the middle of the summer, et cetera, and asked me essentially when could I report to work. So I told him the Tuesday after Labor Day. I was in the middle of the fifth chapter of a nine chapter thesis. I wasn't going to get out of that chair till I had finished.
[01:10:55] So I got a letter shortly thereafter saying sorry you weren'tavailable. Essentially it said sorry you weren't available and that seemed to me it said sorry you weren't available, you haven't got a job. So I called Morrie Horowitz and said, "You know Morrie, I got this strange letter and I thought I had a job." And he said, "I thought you did too." (laughing) "Let me go find out and I'll get back to you." So he went and then called back and said, "You did, but you don't." (laughing) "There's a freeze on Washington.
JONES JR.: [01:11:30] "I can't get anybody to go to the regions. Everybody wantsto come to Washington so they've frozen all the Washington slots." He said, "Send me copy of the package that I have up to Chicago to Harry Henning, who's the Case Analysis Chief in the region, and I will drop him a note and I'm going to call him today." So I did what he told me to do. And to cut right through this, I finished that thesis the last week of the summer and I said-
WEISBERGER:[01:12:01] But you finished it.
JONES JR.: [01:12:02] I finished it, yeah, and I closed my desk inChampaign-Urbana, that would have been the on the Friday before Labor Day and I opened up a desk Tuesday after Labor Day in downtown Chicago as an industrial relations analyst for the Waste Stabilization Board. A white boy's job in downtown Chicago in 1951. Got 30 people in the unit got it, ABD's from Chicago working on their dissertations and a lot of other people. Some people who had Ph.D.'s. Bosses had Ph.D.'s and it was a great job and I was a phenom. I'm telling you this. I was surprised as I'd been on all sort of, I was a factory. I was turning out stuff that was overwhelming the clerical people.
[01:12:58] And what happened to me when I was a graduate assistant, BillChalmers, went out and loaned one of these dictaphones out to me and said, "You: talk, don't write." Everybody in the clerical pool was trying to understand what I, on piles of five by eight cards that you ... The reason I don't read the New York Times, I read 35 years of the New York Times and took notes on it. [Inaudible] I see a New York Times and I go blaaa. (laughing)
WEISBERGER:[01:13:31] You had your fill.
JONES JR.: [01:13:33] I had my fill, more than my fill. Well almost the samething happened at the Waste Stabilization Board. We had a clerical pool and there was one tall gal, it was a ways to learn, had been a ways to learn, and her desk was right next to mine and she could actually decipher my handwriting. Nobody else could.
[01:13:51] So Harry Henning came out one day, by this time the technology hadmoved along. He came out with a little thing that looked like a record player.
WEISBERGER:[01:14:03] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:14:04] Except it had a little microphone, a little vinyl recordand he said, "We can't afford to have you write. Everybody over there is trying to unscramble your handwriting." I was turning out cases. I didn't realize this, by the way, this has happened to me before.
[01:14:23] Anyway, I turned out so much work and there was competition betweenthe units that the other two unit chiefs insisted to my chief, two of these younger chiefs were women, and one man, and they had a squabble. They were racing. We got the biggest backlog in the country and getting these cases for them. And so there's competition between the units and the two, my unit chief complained to the boss that the competition was unfair cuz Jim Jones turns out so much work. By the way, I'm on the lowest GS level.
JONES JR.: [01:15:04] So, they made a deal. They took me out of Gilmore's unitand just attached me to the boss, to the director, for specials. Here I am a G-, by this, by the time I got promoted, after a year I got promoted to a GS-9, but I was a GS-7 right out of graduate school. We'd have special projects trying to get rid of a chunk of stuff so the boss would give it to me and assign two or three people to work for me. Nobody was as low as my grade. Just like when I was in the Navy with the CB guys, but, and I was so, it was interesting and fun, and I was too dumb to be scared so I guess the imagination and coming up with something because the implications of not just didn't occur to me.
[01:16:05] I thought, and I turned out a bunch of junk and after a while, we'dhave really novel things and I'd come up with something and the boss would be dancing in the aisles and say, "This is going to do it, Jim." And then he'd say, "Gotta run it by legal." So literally sometimes we would go over to the law office and the lowest level lawyer would tell the Chief of the Economics Division you can't do that and the explanation didn't make sense. And Harry wasn't shy. He wouldn't necessarily take it and he'd boot it upstairs and the chair, the boss of everybody was a labor lawyer, Sam Edes. Half the time I was right. I remember one time Sam said, "What's wrong with that" later on to Chief Williams. Anyway, he said, "Well, why don't we send it to Washington?" So they sent off something to the General Counsel's and a couple of whatever it was, weeks that went by, and he wouldn't be privy to this. It looked, I was in the john at the urinal and the chief lawyer came in and said, "Hey Jim, you know that matter we were discussing that went to Sam's office?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "You were right on all points." And then everybody started nagging me to go to law school.
JONES JR.: [01:17:22] I had already decided that I was going to go to law schoolcuz since I was trying to be so qualified, that black was going to be irrelevant. Silly me, but anyway, be less relevant, but if you're good enough, maybe somebody might give me another label, but I wasn't sure it would work. So I had decided, I'd get a Ph.D and I'd come up with something, one of these guys is going to tell me you can't do that so why in the heck don't I just go on to law school. So I said-
WEISBERGER:[01:18:02] So you'll know whether you could do it or not.
JONES JR.: [01:18:03] I wouldn't be able to argue with him in the terms thatthey understand, I wasn't backing off with, so this is an additional tool that improves my marketability for later on, wherever that is going to be, so I'm going to hate law school, but-
WEISBERGER:[01:18:24] Why Wisconsin?
JONES JR.: [01:18:28] The Boss, Sam Edes, was a University of Pennsylvaniaundergrad and a Harvard Law graduate and he was the most known arbitrator in the city of Chicago. He represented unions and management and he arbitrated.
WEISBERGER:[01:18:43] Which is fantastically unusual.
JONES JR.: [01:18:46] He was Chairman of the Waste Stabilization, he was on theBoard, and he was one of the big people pushing me to go to law school. We were at a party once, the agency was about to fold anyway so the writing was on the wall, and we were at a Christmas party and I arrived early, and I was having a drink with Sam and Hennie came, the economist. He came in and said, "What are you guys doing, talking shop?" Sam said, "No Harry, I'm trying to convince Jim he ought to go to law school." I think now I'll see the fur fly and the flies between Ph.D. Harry said, "You're absolutely right. If I had to do it over again," so they both ganged up on me.
WEISBERGER:[01:19:30] Certainly right. No dissent.
JONES JR.: [01:19:35] But I had already decided that I was going. So talking toSam, he said, "Jim, you know if you go to law school, you go to Harvard." He said, "Not because they're any good and everything, but people think they are." He told me, "You're good, but we need this type of law." Just a little-
WEISBERGER:[01:19:50] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:19:51] This type of law stuff. Except that I didn't want to be acivil rights lawyer and go back to Little Rock and try to get black folks out of jail and stuff. Civil rights, that's all that was and so there wasn't no such thing as civil rights. So he said, "But if you want to go to the best labor law school in the United States, you go to Wisconsin." Then he talked a little bit about Wisconsin's history. So I sent away my Harvard stuff and Wisconsin, took one look at Harvard's money line, and when they got through boarding me up, I figured after I got through paying for all this stuff I wouldn't have train fare left to get to Cambridge. That isn't quite true, but the difference in the expenses, I knew nothing about a private school in Boston, but figured I could, if I went there I could find some way to stay alive, but that was too,why? I won't, I don't care, but what I want is some tools and it seems like the best tools I'm interested in are up the road.
[01:20:52] Nate had been chairman of the National Waste Stabilization Board. Hegot fired over the steel issue and he was back in Madison and he and Sam knew each other really well, so I sent my stuff up and got accepted, by the test that Wisconsin was giving anyway. And then Sam arranged for me to come up and visit with Nate. [inaudible [01:21:22].
[01:21:22] So I had enough money. I'd saved money and I'm making more money andI said, "Look, when I got promoted to a GS-9 in '52 or '53, somewhere, I had $5,000. That was more money than I thought was in the world." Well it wasn't very long that I was doing that and the, I went six months without a job when the agency closed-
WEISBERGER:[01:21:49] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:21:50] Before law school. But when I worked, I knew, my usualhabit, I was salting away half of that, so I was ready. I figured I could pay the first year at Wisconsin without working, not that I was planning not to work, but I had enough to fund it and a little over-ride and time, and I figured that in a year I would find some way to make money and something where it got me thinking, now I've got two degrees, and I know [inaudible [01:22:23], but I might be able to pick up something that was going to see me through, so I went.
JONES JR.: [01:22:32] One of my kids that graduated from Lincoln, Mack Flash, heactually finished in May, June. I finished my schoolwork in December, so I immediately went to grad school, next semester. When my class graduated from Lincoln, I was studying my first cycle of exams at the graduate school and went off to Wayne State, by the way. I was a student in an internship program where I worked in the mills at night because at Illinois you had to have an industrial internship of three months and an exam and they had to know a whole lot of stuff.
WEISBERGER:[01:23:15] I didn't know that. That's very good.
JONES JR.: [01:23:18] Yup. In 1950. One of the best parts of the program cuz youalready had this set of background, and you this analytical framework that you could go to the job and try to fill in the gaps of stuff that was important and kind of pay attention to and try to fit in, so I did that and I was completely anonymous, this would have been two months and three weeks or so, I worked right across the bench from the regular, we went to union meetings together and so forth, and the last week I was on the job, the HR Director would call and I came out to the midnight shift, I'd work the morning shift, and he would stop at my bench and sat and talked to me for a while. When he left, this kid that we'd been working with said, "Boy are you in big trouble. What did you do?"
JONES JR.: [01:24:17] "What's the man out here talking to you about?" And I toldhim, "This is my last week. I've got another week and then I'm going back to school." I'm a graduate student in labor relations and he didn't believe it. I completely blended in with the work assignment.
[01:24:36] I interviewed, and at various functionaries, including the unionfunctionary. So if we went to school in the daytime, from noon till three or four or so, and I worked from seven, from 11 to seven in the morning, six days a week.
[01:25:02] Do you know Mark Conn?
JONES JR.: [01:25:05] Mark was a young professor who taught at the school.
JONES JR.: [01:25:10] And the reason that, it was a great idea that Wayne hadthe connections to get you placed. It was great for everybody cuz they put these students in these donkey parts of the job while the real workers went on vacation, right?
WEISBERGER:[01:25:26] So it worked out all the way around.
JONES JR.: [01:25:27] It worked out great cuz at the end of the summer, the kidswere able to learn after unemployment comp, they're going to have a [inaudible [01:25:33]. I waited tables on the Santa Fe Railroad with a Master's Degree in industrial relations for about four months when I got this job in Chicago. Nobody would hire me. There were some agencies that were interested, but as soon as I told them that I was going to go to law school, the interest disappeared. I wouldn't lie, I'd put that on there, so I couldn't get a job.
[01:25:57] I finally got a job, a union, it took some union force, I got a jobin a factory, airplane motor and everything. They thought they were doing me a favor. They got me a job as an inspector. It's the hardest job I ever had in my life. All I did hours at a time was stand and wait till somebody else got through grinding the inside of the motor and I would shine a flashlight up there and mark in yellow the rough parts that hadn't been done and I'd pass it along to somebody else they were going to sell it to. You couldn't read. It was noisy, you just stand there and wait.
[01:26:31] When I went and quit the job, the person, the people, the person inthe office couldn't understand why I was quitting. I told them, "This has got to the the dumbest job in the world. I'm looking at the guy who's stripped to the waist and ringing wet in sweat cuz he's handling these and envying him." I said, "I would much rather have that job."
[01:26:50] Anyway, so I bumped into one of the kids from Illinois who was inmedical school. He had been in undergrad when I was in grad school then, and for black folks, the interaction was pretty good. So he came by and was talking, and I was telling him that I couldn't get a job and that I was ... He told me about the parking and stuff he had made and [inaudible [01:27:14] and he said, "Why don't you go down there with so and so at Santa Fe", and I said, "Well, you know," and he said, "Look. That's what they do. Half the wait staff down there are medical students, black, all blacks. And you tell them, cuz George Clark had told me." And he said, "I've worked there a couple years. They hire, they've got the most educated wait staff you could imagine during the vacation months for the same reason. Vacation people take vacation and put these students in there, medical students." He said, "They'll hire a law students. September you're gone, right?"
JONES JR.: [01:27:50] The regulars are back and work and you don't have to endup on the railroad, whatever it is, the railroad has an unemployment comp thing too. Then the whole business with my social security, by th way, I think there's three months of railroad that they got out of it and I had to keep sending it back cuz they keep up with all that junk. It's the social security you know?
WEISBERGER:[01:28:10] Oh yeah.
JONES JR.: [01:28:12] So that's what I, I went to California a few times and outto, the first time at the Grand Canyon, and we ending up with a run from Chicago to Kansas City going out at night, closing up the bar and stuff in the middle of the, getting up at 5:00 in the morning, doing breakfast in Kansas City, layover till the evening, turn around and come back. It was really a donkey run, but it was two days on and a day off, et cetera, and it was steady, and so that was my summer job.
WEISBERGER:[01:28:43] That was your summer job and your pre-law school orimmediate pre-law school experience.
JONES JR.: [01:28:49] Right. But, my classmate from Lincoln was on ascholarship, fellowship. We talked and I'm coming to law school and so he said, "Why don't you apply for a scholar fellowship?" I said, "Well, why? Nobody gives fellowships to law students." He said, "This outfit does. John Hay Whitney Minority Fellowship Fund." I'd never heard of it. John Whitney had an affirmative action type program in the 50s for negroes. An academic-type competition, no limit on the field. So Gus told me about it and I said, "Well send me ..." and he gave me the site. So I sent away and got there and filled out the stuff and I figure well, since we were classmates, and my grades were as good as his, maybe a little better or the other way around, I don't know, we were either two and three and I was two and he was three or the other way around.
WEISBERGER: [01:29:49] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:29:51] But I had this whole raft of extra-curricular stuff andwork and all he did was go to school. (laughing)
WEISBERGER: [01:29:57] But you had a good chance.
JONES JR.: [01:30:01] If he got one, my grades, my record's as good as his. MyMaster's Degree was from Illinois. His was from Missouri. He was in Wisconsin for labor law, for labor economics, and I wanted to come to Wisconsin and I have this background, but you're right to reason that this was, yeah, that's the first luck. The second luck was the director, Robert C. Weaver, who had a Ph.D. in labor economics, one of the earliest rising stars.
WEISBERGER: [01:30:28] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:30:31] I didn't know any of this, but Bob Weaver obviously lookedat what I was proposing to do and probably said, "My God." I don't know, when I graduated from law school I don't think there was another person in the United States with my combination of professionalism, training.
WEISBERGER: [01:30:48] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:30:50] Cuz who the hell went there and got two professionaldegrees? Well, if you're from Little Rock, cuz there was a kid in law school--no he had just finished law school when I came--that I'd known since I was 12 years old or younger. He was finishing his MBA here in accounting. Before we had anything that we recognized as a dual degree, Conroy Harris got both of them. He ended up working for the government too. He's, by the way, he married the twin sister of the wife of my high school chemistry partner that was going to become a doctor. ( laughing) Small world department.
WEISBERGER: [01:31:32] Small world department is right.
JONES JR.: [01:31:35] But also there's the business of network. Where's theschool that in those days would let you in and is not as oppressive as other places and so that kind of thing. Well anyway, so I got, after counting my money, I got the Whitney that paid the full ride. It would have paid Harvard. (laughing) Then, so I came up here. I've still got my little chunk of money that I've been hanging on to forever, right? Which is very fortunate cuz that between, there's gaps when you gotta pay rent, and eat and so forth. There wasn't no place to go to but me.
WEISBERGER: [01:32:15] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:32:16] My family couldn't, there was no help and by this time, Iwasn't expecting help. I'm not only a grown man, I'm an old man. They wonder, why the hell are you just going to go to school forever? Matter of fact, a young woman that dumped me when I was, it was my major college girlfriend, my not too sophisticated roommate at Illinois bumped into her and asked her, "What happened to you and Jimmie?" And she and he came back and told me. She said, "Well, you know he can't seem to get enough education. I think I got enough to go on and make a life." (laughing) So, I'm thinking, when he told me that I said Yeah, I wasn't that cut up anyway about her deciding I wasn't it, cuz
WEISBERGER: [01:33:07] You weren't ready -
JONES JR.: [01:33:11] I wasn't ready, cuz, marrying or what, I'm trying tofigure out how to do what you gotta do, and I don't take on obligations I can't manage. What do I want to do with a wife and some kids? She was Catholic anyway and-
WEISBERGER: [01:33:24] Lots of complications.
JONES JR.: [01:33:26] Well, she was, well anyway, she was a wonderful lady andall that, but we weren't joined at the hip. And I hadn't totally recovered from that first dumping that I got in
WEISBERGER: [01:33:39] In New York. Well what about, what was your first yearhere like? Were there any big surprises, little surprises? Did you love law school right away?
JONES JR.: [01:33:49] I hated law school.
WEISBERGER: [01:33:50] You hated Okay.
JONES JR.: [01:33:51] Not right away, three years. I knew I wasn't oneparticularly I don't like lawyers. We screw up more than we help. And what you teach lawyers to find ... People think it was so surprising for Bill Clinton from one of the leading law schools in the United States that says it depends on-
WEISBERGER: [01:34:10] What is, is.
JONES JR.: [01:34:12] What is, is. That isn't, you know, that's lawyering.That's a kind of, you know-
WEISBERGER: [01:34:18] Weren't there any problem solver types in the facultythat had a different model than a traditional law area model?
JONES JR.: [01:34:26] If you thought about that when you were going to lawschool, you were way ahead of anyone I know.
WEISBERGER: [01:34:32] No, I didn't think about it. It was a whole new world. Ididn't even know what to think about the world-
JONES JR.: [01:34:36] When I was in law school, I was trying to understand whatthe hell the book is saying, etc., and make my notes, and be able to take the exam and pass it, and do the best I could since ... The word was that Whitney only gave two years and they gave 50 first years and about 10 second years on the basis of first year competitions. Well since the fields were open, how do you get a second? I figured the only way you get a second, get a shot at a second ...
WEISBERGER: [01:35:28] And this side B of the tape. I think its-
JONES JR.: [01:35:29] Goodness. Today is Wednesday?
WEISBERGER: [01:35:36] Tuesday.
JONES JR.: [01:35:37] Tuesday. Okay, you're right. My clock is screwed up. Okay, alright.
WEISBERGER: [01:35:42] Alright. First year law school.
JONES JR.: [01:35:46] First year law school. First of all, I came up here tolearn something about the "liberal reputation" of the law school.
WEISBERGER: [01:35:50] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [01:35:51] Paisan's used to be over on University Avenue, about threedoors down from the cornder. It sits on the University park, right across from that building where the old drug store used to be
WEISBERGER: [01:36:08] Yeah, where extension-
JONES JR.: [01:36:09] Well. Whatever, that new building that's over there-
WEISBERGER: [01:36:13] Oh, where the business school was.
JONES JR.: [01:36:15] No, no, no. Going downtown.
WEISBERGER: [01:36:18] Oh, ok.
JONES JR.: [01:36:18] Right over there on that corner, going that way. Businessschool's this way, right?
WEISBERGER: [01:36:22] Right.
JONES JR.: [01:36:23] It's right across that way. What is over ... Anyway, thatarea was a bunch of little stores. Right on the corner there was a florist shop, and then there was a grocery store, and next to that was Paisan'. Store front. And the guy who ran it, Roy, what's the name he got married in the family. He wasn't Italian, and he was a fairly young guy. And I lived right down in one of those big old houses that ran into the groves, and I was there cuz that's where Gus was, and that was, that was the network-
WEISBERGER: [01:36:59] Right, you had a good network going.
JONES JR.: [01:37:01] So I, I got a room in there and I used to go around toPaisan's at ten o'clock at night and eat such a lot. I'd break from studying and go around there and have a cup of tea and at 10:15 I would come and I could finish my till midnight study routine. And the first week or so I was here, I wasn't here very long, and I was coming out of Paisan's and I was leaving at the same time some women were leaving. I didn't know them, they didn't know me. They were white, I'm black, and we get to the corner, stop. A car swirled around the corner and some yahoos yelled out of the window, right in their faces this was to the girls, right? "Nigger lovers!"
WEISBERGER: [01:37:55] What an introduction to Madison.
JONES JR.: [01:37:59] The only time in my tour that I relaxed myself on the raceissue I misjudged. Madison had this reputation, well it had a reputation. But one that it doesn't deserve, even now. Housing was segregated. They had a listing in the housing place where they would let you know where people would accept So there was no law that says we can't say, "We don't take niggers" in Wisconsin. They even had one run about Jews that said, you could show up at a place that rent an apartment and they'd say, "We don't rent to New Yorkers." That was the code word, right?
[01:38:38] Grove's Co-Op, where Louie's drew back, Grove's began, was aninter-racial inter-religious women's living co-op experiment. And Harry Groves was the sponsor of the women's organization cuz most of the other, weren't too many people anxious to, just ... As a matter of fact at one time, the Dean of Women told one of the women who ran it, was president, and said, "Why don't you people give it, you know you've already proved your point that Negroes and Jews and Protestants and Christians can live together. Why don't you give it up?" It's, you know it was a struggle to keep the thing together.
[01:39:27] They rented their basement facility to the Green Lantern and co-opscuz the women didn't do their own it was an old sorority house. The chemistry building is there, at Johnson and That used to be the building. Across the street was a big old raggedy house where Mifflin Street stands, there a grocery store, and the grocer, Rothblatten, he rented it to Negroes. I had an "apartment" there the last year in law school. But I quit Law Review and cooked at Green Lantern.
[01:40:02] When I was "invited to Law Review" See the bullshit they usenow, my name would be on the door. In those days, Law Review and Coif were the same people, only top ten percent of the class, in the first year class. And then you had to do the scut work like ... I'm 29 years old and I come to law school, I have written professional stuff for a living and these punks, fraternity boys, going to try to tell me how to write? And they want me to do a "scut work", checking footnotes and chasing this sort of dull stuff, which was time consuming. I'm spending a lot of time and I'm thinking, okay, I got this first year, gotta start working on second year. I wasn't spending all that Whitney was paying anyway. I was saving, pinching off and getting ready for how to do the second year.
[01:41:02] I got over in the co-op and found out that they had lousy cooks andthey had some openings for a cook and I took a job. I used to cook four meals a week for 85 people. And when they had special meals, I was always, I did the Thanksgiving and the special meal stuff. And that's where I met Louise and David. David Trubek and Louise Grossman and a whole bunch of other folks.
[01:41:28] And they were all this integrated liberals, and they werechildren, really children. He kind of skipped through high school almost and he was an activist. He was an editor of, one of the writers for the Daily Cardinal and started a monthly magazine, he and some guys, and so I knew David. And the notion that they would ever be a couple would have been laughed out of the Greenland co-op.
[01:41:55] David didn't belong to the co-op, but you had to pay $ 6.75 a weekfor 12 meals.
[01:42:00] and three hours of work of sweat equity, and you had to meetyour obligations. Louise was a member of both co-ops. Anyway, so I quit Law Review ... spent that time ... you know, what the hell I need with Law Review? What am I gonna do with Law Review anyway?
[01:42:24] I was six months after I quit, and Nate Feinsinger sent for meand said "What's this I hear about you quitting Law Review? Don't you know the big law firms want to know where'd you go to law school? Where'd you stand in your class? Were you Coif, were you Law Review?"
[01:42:42] I said "Which big law firms gonna wanna know that about me?"
WEISBERGER: [01:42:49] Did he answer?
JONES JR.: [01:42:49] I said only time and 30 odd years of association I hadstumped Nate.
WEISBERGER: [01:42:54] He was speechless.
JONES JR.: [01:42:55] He went on to talk about ... I'm thinking, you know, if alaw firm was going to hire the editor in chief of the Law Review and the other candidate was me, with what I was bringing to the table, to do labor law, I would be completely comfortable with that choice because I wouldn't respect their judgment enough to work for them. Not that that was possible. They didn't even tell the black students that the law firms interviewed. And it was an act of kindness.
[01:43:28] I'll tell you my other story. True story. Number one interview, Foley& Lardner, which was Foley & Sammon then, which was the number Wisconsin law firm, was already set up for the number one man in the class. I ran, interview partner, automatically. Went around the law school my second year, and they said that it was all set in arrangement. At that point in time, a student knocks on the door, and the partner says, "Come in". Student walks in and says, "good morning, I'm Jean Gallagher." The partner stood up and said, "You're Jean Gallagher? But we don't hire women."
WEISBERGER: [01:44:13] I'd never heard that story. I believe it, because I knowof my own experiences.
JONES JR.: [01:44:18] By the way, you can check, Jean Gallagher, class of '55, Ithink. Maybe '54. She was a long tall .. There weren't very many women in the law school, I think it was about nine or ten. And, had I walked in and said, "Good morning, I'm Jean Gallagher," he would have fainted.
[01:44:42] Because see I know it's true because when I was in Chicago, theapplicants for some they had a case pending before the board. You had to get permission under the freeze for whatever kind of changes you wanted to make in your wage structure. You had ten percent to play with, so somebody had to put together your plea and present it to the decision-makers, and I was one of those somebodies in this instance.
[01:45:18] After awhile, I was the hottest property in the place, so I wasgetting the tough ones, and the people would come in for a meeting with the analyst, and we had this strikingly beautiful, very sophisticated receptionist. She would really give them the treatment, get them in the conference room and introduce them to our Mr. Jones, and they would all undoubtedly go... And then in the course of one old dude, I forgot, they had a lot of business He was older, fairly. He cross-examined me the first time. The second time, he came over, he just couldn't believe that, you know. By the time he got through with this ...
WEISBERGER: [01:46:11] He was glad you were doing it.
JONES JR.: [01:46:12] Are you kidding? He would call up and ask me questionsover the phone, like free advice, and I'd say "you know, I can't buy in the agency", and he'd say, "I know, I'm interested in your thoughts". So he used to pick my brain. But the first time he saw me, I thought he was going t have a hard attack. He was an old, white-haired guy, and these other guys said, "what the hell is he doing our stuff?"
[01:46:36] Well, I'll tell you what, we'd get all of this. There was a great bigdude. He came in, and was doing it, and after was all over they had all sorts of ways of trying to get the question. He said, "how long have you been with the government, Mr. Jones?" I told him, "this is my first job." He asked me my background, and he said, "I hope you think, you don't take offense. But would you tell me why in the world a Negro would decide on this profession?" He said, "I'm a former All-American from the University of Illinois, football player. This stuff is highly personal in connection," and he talked about the differences. "Why would you, an intelligent young man, choose to go into this rather than something else?"
[01:47:25] So I gave him my, I don't know, 101 performance. I said, "You know,we always hear this business about what people would do about hiring Negroes if they could find qualified ones. So some of us have to get qualified in fields that we ordinarily wouldn't pursue, or they can always give that excuse."
WEISBERGER: [01:47:51] That's a great answer.
JONES JR.: [01:47:53] Well, it also is a true answer. I said, "I was gonna be aresearch chemist, you know?" And they'd have to say, "No, we don't hire y'all with PhDs in chemistry," right? And so here I am still in the field. I didn't desert the business, I'm not gonna be pushed into something. Plus the fact, can you contribute?
WEISBERGER: [01:48:11] I'm interested, getting back to your first year. You atleast had some experience in your prior government job with lawyers even though you didn't think they were maybe the most qualified or something, but you knew what at least some lawyers did. Was that helpful in your first year? You obviously did very well. So you worked hard, I know that. It must have been something positive about the law school experience, or something that worked.
JONES JR.: [01:48:39] I'm learning tools, I came to get some tools, not to getpatted on the back. And as a matter of fact, when there were courses and two people taught them, and one of them had a reputation of hard and the other was easy, right, I would take hard. They're talking about grades and all, I said, you know, "I came to get some tools to use. You can't come and decide which tools you're gonna get." I don't care what they were putting out, I was trying to figure out, well, alright, what can you do with this? How does this fit? How does this fit the toolkit?
[01:49:17] Now, I came there for labor, and anything with labor on it, I tookeverything, there wasn't but four courses. I took all of them and aced all of them. I also took Willard Hurst's two courses, which were sort of untraditional, and I got my two worst grades in law school from Willard, and I knew his courses cold. I never went back to talk to a teacher in my life about a goddamn grade.
WEISBERGER: [01:49:51] Unlike some students nowadays, or many students, I don't know.
JONES JR.: [01:49:54] By the way, your name was on your blue book, andeverything was And I got some colored grades at Illinois. Such that students in the class who got A's could not believe that they got an A and then, for white boys to say, "you mean Matt gave you a B, how could he give you a B? I got an A."
WEISBERGER: [01:50:19] But you must have caught on the game of law school, orwhat it's about.
JONES JR.: [01:50:26] I didn't think it was a game. School was a game, but Iapproached school to learn everything I could in the time I had allotted. By the way, one thing I came to law school with, I don't care how the court came out, or how the lawyers ended up, but I don't internalize that as the right and God, et cetera. I came bringing my own judgments. I knew that United States law was a goddamn fraud. I lived the fraud all the way through up to this. It doesn't have to go to Chicago.
[01:51:06] But seen now, we're dealing with things that have nothing to do withrace, but see, I bring to the table with, "Well, here's where they come out, here's why they came out, here's how they got here. Here's what they claim is the justification." And I'm gonna be able to give that back to whoever asks. And then if they make the fatal question of asking me, "What do you think about its fairness?" I would scald them, but I did that as an undergraduate. The best teacher I ever had was Professor at Lincoln-had a PhD in political science from Pennsylvania, where he was a Harrison Fellow for his whole PhD career, and he's senior to me, right? And you imagine how racist things were when he was going on, so you'll figure just how good-
WEISBERGER: [01:51:52] He must have been.
JONES JR.: [01:51:57] Well, he brought his demand for excellence right into thatlittle black school. And, they don't know about him now, but when I was there, he was a legend. Miller's boys, he was one of Miller's boys. Miller taught his courses, these courses that people were required to take with the notion, and I was his teaching assistant for awhile after he adopted me. And I used to tell him how unfair he was. You know, "These kids, you know, what you're putting them through to pass. They do so and so. If you do all the homework, you understand this stuff, you can answer the questions, that ought to be an A." And he said, "You know, no. That's a C. A's and B's are honor grades. If you don't go above the standard, how are you gonna get an honor grade?"
[01:52:50] And a matter of fact, if I hadn't taken him, I would've had a muchbetter average. He used to keep up with me, and he would say, with his cigar smoking, " Mr. Jones, I see you almost made a three point." And I would say, three point was an A average in that. I would say, "Yeah, if I wouldn't have taken some unreasonable person for one of my courses I would get one B So finally, one year, I said, okay, one semester, I'm gonna get him this year. But I had to slack off on something else, so I aced both of his courses, but then I dropped off on something else and still didn't get a three-point.
[01:53:31] He said, "You know, that's a University of Pennsylvania grade." Hewas really something, Dr. Miller. He taught Constitutional Law for 14 years, he gave two A's. Me and a kid from my hometown, my high school, who went on to become a lawyer, and Robert Hall. He's dead now. And by the way, in Miller's class, we argued all the time. He called me a communist He said, "You don't have to agree with my interpretations, but you better know it. We're doing political theory, and it's Socrates or whatever. You gotta know that, and you have to know my take. And then you can put it."
WEISBERGER: [01:54:19] Right, and then you can have your take.
JONES JR.: [01:54:21] "And then you can put in your own. But you can just sortof get up there and belch out." So that's part of it. You know, I took that kind of approach to all of my advanced education. I'm not gonna be making judgments like these idiots in this law school. They come thinking we're just gonna rubber stamp their damn biases. Well, they're cynical. I ain't even cynical, but I said, "Dude, this is how it works. You have to understand how it works. You don't have to buy that it's the best way, but if you don't understand it, you don't have any credibility."
WEISBERGER: [01:54:52] Right.
JONES JR.: [01:54:53] I was the first-semester, first-year law student at a 7:45class in Domestic Relations, we used to call it. And Edwin Conrad, long-time city attorney, and he taught in law school. And he was teaching the class, and it was some particular point. And after the case got put out and we ended discussion, I raised a question about why that result. And he said, "Because it's the law." And I said, "If that's the case, the law is an ass." I'm a first-year student, but we've already discussed, wow we're talking about another issue. So that's the kind of first-year student I was. By the way, I wasn't scared of law professors.
WEISBERGER: [01:55:46] That I believe. Of course you came in with a lot ofindependentexperience.
JONES JR.: [01:55:54] Well, yeah. I'd been in and out of the law, and halfwayaround the world and back. I'd been through a whole lot of adversary stuff.
WEISBERGER: [01:56:04] Right? And a very responsible, relevant job.
JONES JR.: [01:56:08] I wasn't afraid to fail.
WEISBERGER: [01:56:12] Well, did there come a time during your law school yearswhen you became less interested, or did you only become more interested in labor law? Was that a constant, or were there fluctuations in your interest?
JONES JR.: [01:56:33] There were fluctuations in my effort, the time I put intoit. By the way, I got an A average, and I got a second Whitney. There was no third Whitneys, so all that business of what I was doing to try to have it so surrounded that I'm gonna end up with an A average and so forth was no longer relevant to me. I've gotta talk about surviving the third and the fourth year, so I can't spend all that time. Even if I had it, I probably would've burned out anyway. I can't spend all that time on this, because I need to spend some time on something else. Law Review didn't pay a damn thing, I needed the extra credits, right?. Financing is standard, it's important, that's irrelevant, right? So, I shifted down a little bit so I wasn't putting 60 hours in the books. And some of the courses, you gotta know, this is part of the core. So don't come to law school and just cherry pick and go out and be a lawyer. You know, I'm gonna take all the labor law, but this other stuff that lawyers do, I've got to know some of this, because who knows what kind of job opportunities you're gonna get-
WEISBERGER: [01:57:57] Who knows?
JONES JR.: [01:57:58] Or what you end up doing. The other thing is, John A.Whitney paid for two years of my education on the basis of my academic achievement, my effort. I don't take what I don't deliver, so I always felt that they deserved an honest effort for their money so I wouldn't be an embarrassment in having financing. And when Gus told me that they granted fellowships for law study, I found out shortly thereafter that the first guy that got one had gone to Yale and flunked out.
WEISBERGER: [01:58:41] You weren't gonna do that.
JONES JR.: [01:58:43] I wasn't gonna have them think that law is notAnyway, all of that went into it. But then I had to sort of time budget. So Domestic Relations would get less attention than I was in this building taking Con Law the summer after Brown was decided, and Bill Foster was my teacher.
[01:59:07] The other thing is that you didn't have that much choice. You see,the first year was set, and half of the second year was set, and then you could choose one of two or one of three courses.
WEISBERGER: [01:59:22] Yeah, so limited choices there.
JONES JR.: [01:59:23] It's structured, and then if you had a clerkship, aninternship, you could do 80 and 6 months with a law firm and get certified that you were doing law work, and then you would get your law degree. But for us black kids, where the hell were you gonna get a clerkship? Turns out that Carly Barby got one, but the other option was 80 and 8, as they said, 88. But the eight was structured, you had to take the advanced procedure course and you had to take the, what was it called, the practice. Stuff that, actually Jim McDonald taught, and I did it in summer school. Eight credits, or was it six credits, all morning long, and all afternoon you were dogging the library to do the assignments.
WEISBERGER: [02:00:14] Assignment for the next day.
JONES JR.: [02:00:15] And I went to summer school, both summers. If I was incharge of the world, you could only do clinical in the summer. The worst law education, you didn't have to shift gears and just sort of too concentrated. But you know, there were courses, and I wasn't gonna fail intentionally, and I'm gonna give it a good, solid effort.
WEISBERGER: [02:00:44] Best shot.
JONES JR.: [02:00:45] Though I won't necessarily I didn't give anythingwhat I gave the labor stuff, and I got a job. I ended up as Gus Eckhard's assistant, so the Law Review crap, I added to the whole volume. We can't find it, by the way, of labor papers for a big conference that Nate sponsored. Gus was the one who was outreach. Gus was the one that had the responsibility, I don't know where the forms came from. And I was Gus' assistant, so I actually ran the damn programs after he hired me. The first academic staff for what now has become outreach half time, and a half time secretary.
[02:01:32] And Gus, I never took a course from Gus, he was a property guy. Whenthe regents approved the degree-granting program that was effective September of '56, the PhD, and Gus found out what the regents did since they had approved his stuff. He said, "Jim, guess what? The regents have approved the PhD program, the industrial relations," he said. And he knew, I could tell you how I started out with this stuff and what I was about. He said, "Now you can stay and get that PhD." And with a big smile, he said, "And you can keep this assistantship the whole time."
WEISBERGER: [02:02:20] He had some self-interest there.
JONES JR.: [02:02:21] Well, of course. But, he was on the faculty when theyhired me. He left and went to Arizona. Put my name, ultimately, in the pot in Arizona for the deanship, I think he was trying to get me to go there. That's what Gus thought to me.
WEISBERGER: [02:02:34] I know he's still alive because Stuart Gullickson is intouch with him.
JONES JR.: [02:02:39] Yeah, they practiced both in Maryland and stuff like that,he's one of my fans.
WEISBERGER: [02:02:47] Okay, so law school's coming to a close, and what happens next?
JONES JR.: [02:02:53] Nate was writing letters, and I wanted to work for a tradeunion. See, I'm gonna help save the world, and the churches ain't doing their jobs, so I was dying to get in the UAW was the gold standard of liberal trade. I had done my thesis on the UAW's famous article 25, the one that brought Fair Employment, FEPC. I was looking at it the other day, I told [inaudible 02:03:20] last week. Good thing I trumped everybody in the room. I had a good standing card from west side local amalgam 174 UAW. Victor and Walter.
WEISBERGER: [02:03:32] They're local.
JONES JR.: [02:03:40] Local. I had joined the union on the job, when I went backto school I took out a card. It's 1950. And then I went back to graduate school and ended up doing my thesis on the UAW. And it was a field thesis, in fact.
WEISBERGER: [02:03:57] So was that where you looked for your first job or was a hopeful?
JONES JR.: [02:04:02] Well yeah, it was that, I wanted a union job. Nate was thequarterback of where there were jobs, and everybody knew him, so he was my entre. He wrote letters and sent my stuff to them. The conference of Tom Harris, who was AFL CIO, Houston, he was in those programs. All these were contacts from Nate. Abner nagged me to apply to the Labor Department. I was scared to death I was gonna get hired there and have to litigate fair labor standards law. But anyway, he was relentless. Abner came out of the litigation thing and they were DOL. So I filled out the government thing and sent it in, just to get Abner off my back.
[02:04:52] NLRB was the next thing, and up in the general counsel of NLRB wasTed Kammholz who was a Wisconsin graduate. Nate was-
WEISBERGER: [02:05:01] Pushing in that direction.
JONES JR.: [02:05:02] Well, no. If I didn't get a union job, that would havebeen the job of choice.
WEISBERGER: [02:05:05] That was your fall back.
JONES JR.: [02:05:08] Well, whoever bought first, because that's labor relationslaw. I would have loved that. Management didn't even apply to anybody, and not even the state. We're talking about Jim Crow City, American apartheid. We lie about our history, you know. And, I didn't even know any black labor lawyers. The closest thing to a labor lawyer was a civil rights lawyer, the guy who was the architect of Duty of Fair Representation was Charles Hamilton Houston. And the two young lawyers on the two cases were Bill Hasty and Thurgood Marshall, okay. That became reallylabor law, although it was civil rights-driven. But put that to one side.
WEISBERGER: [02:06:00] Okay, so there you were, standing, having yourapplications out there. Union, labor, and NLRB.
JONES JR.: [02:06:10] And government.
WEISBERGER: [02:06:12] Okay, and who got you?
JONES JR.: [02:06:17] DOL, the only one, I got one job offer after four monthsgraduating from Wisconsin. I dropped out of the top 10 percent, I didn't do Law Review. But I, you know-
WEISBERGER: [02:06:29] You were high in the class.
JONES JR.: [02:06:31] I was an honors grad. When I went on the market, I stoodnumber 17 in third-year standing of 121 or something like that. See, they didn't have, and by the way, it's meaningless, 'cause you-
TURNER: [02:08:22] This concludes the second interview of the oral history. Thethird interview, conducted on June 23rd, 2004, begins now.
WEISBERGER: [02:08:32] June 23rd, 2004. And this is June Weisberger interviewingprofessor James E. Jones, Jr. I now have it correct. And this our third take. And, we'll probably finish for the summer right now, and then pick up in the fall in September.
JONES JR.: [02:08:51] The way that it's going, we'll need at least three more takes.
WEISBERGER: [02:08:54] Well, that's okay.
JONES JR.: [02:08:56] Or more.
WEISBERGER: [02:08:56] Okay, Jim, when we left off yesterday, you had graduatedthe University of Wisconsin law school, but you were in Chicago waiting to see which of these jobs where you had submitted your qualifications.
JONES JR.: [02:09:13] Waiting to see if anybody would call me.
WEISBERGER: [02:09:14] Whether you'd be a nibble. Alright.
JONES JR.: [02:09:17] Okay.
WEISBERGER: [02:09:17] So what happened?
JONES JR.: [02:09:18] By the way, interestingly enough, I don't know if youwatched TV today, it's the big comeback of Raisin in the Sun.
WEISBERGER: [02:09:25] I know, yeah.
JONES JR.: [02:09:28] One of those roommates, the architect, is married toElaine Hansberger's first cousin. And she herself is in the theater, because she teaches in New York.
WEISBERGER: [02:09:38] That's a great play.
JONES JR.: [02:09:38] Connections, connections, connections.
WEISBERGER: [02:09:38] Yes.
JONES JR.: [02:09:45] At any rate, I was sitting around down in... My roommates,and this will tell you something about the time, I moved back in with them, they had this big raggedy apartment on the south side of Chicago, multi-room. It was just two of them. And they refused to take any rent.
WEISBERGER: [02:10:05] That's a good deal.
JONES JR.: [02:10:07] I know, and that was typical of how we were way back. Butyou know, you can kick in your 10 bucks a week for food. You know, telephone here, and so forth. Well, I kicked in my 10 bucks a week. They also had a good deal because I was the cook, I would do the shopping. I was the house man, I kept house. I did the shopping.
WEISBERGER: [02:10:27] They got a good deal then.
JONES JR.: [02:10:30] And I cooked. I used to do most of the cooking way backwhen we were Anyways, so it was a great deal, sitting around there.
[02:10:40] So, I think I said my college roommate, who I only found out when Iwas about ten years old that he wasn't my first cousin, we finished Lincoln and left Lincoln on the train. He was one of those people I was telling you earlier about how the young vice principal of the high school was recruiting; he was recruited for the Navy and he went to the Navy too. So he had Navy, and he ended up with Lincoln University. He was a Business Administration major, and went onto NYU. And we left Lincoln on the same train, me going to Illinois, and he was going to New York. I finished, I think he left NYU ABD and I don't know if he ever got back, but he has a sack full of honorary degrees, of which I have none.
[02:11:44] Anyway, Tom came by and said, "Why don't you come on, and I've got acompany car." He'd been there doing some he wasn't paid for marketing, but since they knew his background, they pulled him and he was in Chicago, and he was doing a marketing testing of one of the cigarette companies that they had bought. And so, he was South Side, black dude, going all these places. Great big, beautiful dude, by the way. 6'3" and chocolate, dimples. Shock of black curly hair and a big belly laugh, you know. Everybody just loved him. Anyway, he said, "Come on and go back, hun, we'll hang out for a couple weeks, and then you go to down to Washington and knock on doors. Nobody's gonna come out here to Chicago and drag you out of here," so I went.
[02:12:37] Before that, I was sitting in Chicago, Abner Brody, one of myprofessors who had nagged me about applying for the Labor Department, called. And said, "You're right there in Chicago"--this will tell you how long ago--he said, "For a nickel, you can go downtown on the subway and visit with Herman Graham, a regional solicitor." So I did. And it was a delightful visit. I enjoyed him, he obviously enjoyed me, and he told me that he was gonna call the boss and tell him to hire me. I don't know whether that had any, I didn't know how the system worked or anything.
[02:13:17] And as a matter of fact, he asked me a question that, he said, andthis conversation never happened. He said, "Do you know any Republicans?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "Well, you know, it would be nice if once of the references you had was a Republican." So, I filed that away and went about my business.
[02:13:46] I had been interviewed in Chicago by representatives of the NationalLabor Relations Act, the board. And one of them was a guy named Ivan McLoud, and he was obviously just a straight white boy by the terms that we used in those days. But he looked like an East Indian, very handsome, and he was fairly senior in the board structure somewhere, I know not where. So he interviewed me, somebody else there, I had nine interviews as I count it , nine different interviews with somebody ultimately. Four of them, at least four, maybe five of them were in Washington with those people. But Ivan was the senior person that interviewed me in Chicago, and he was absolutely certain that they were gonna hire me. He said, well, he was just delighted, so I thought, well, I've got a pretty good shot, right?
JONES JR.: [02:14:47] But he left, I never heard anymore from anybody in theboard either. I hadn't heard from anybody either-
WEISBERGER: [02:14:54] In labor.
JONES JR.: [02:14:55] I hadn't heard from anybody anywhere, alright? So I went,hung out and parted with Tom in New York, and then I went down to Washington and found me a very cheap room in a tourist home. And I had some friends in Washington, you know. As a matter of fact, from here. One of whom, I hope is gonna be a candidate for an honorary degree from here, a PhD in psychology. The other was Mary Wilburn, do you know?
WEISBERGER: [02:15:32] Yes.
JONES JR.: [02:15:34] Mary Wilburn's husband, who was the first assistant vicepresident of the university system.
WEISBERGER: [02:15:42] Is it Steve?
JONES JR.: [02:15:43] No, his name is Adolf, Adolf Wilburn. And he got abachelor's degree, and a master's in chemistry from Marquette. The first black professional hired by one of those outfits in Milwaukee.
[02:16:00] Ultimately, got a PHD from Harvard. They did fabulous. We was forpractical purposes, the dean of education, of american education in Cairo, the county of Egypt for a long period of time. But anyway, so my connections, they sort of steer me to things. And I got interviewed by the labor department. I don't know what I told you, and the interview with the labor department, I thought I was taking my orals for my masters thesis again.
[02:16:44] I'm sitting at the end of the table and there's a table full ofpeople sitting around, including one woman who was obviously a significant player, at least one. It might have been more. Not another black, but it turns out there was another black, not only on my staff, but in that division and he was senior and had been a labor law professor at Howard University, and went on to become the first black board member. Howard Jenkins.
WEISBERGER: [02:17:16 Certainly a name that many of us recognize.
JONES JR.: [02:17:19] Anyway, they ultimately offered me a GS9, which is exactlythe grade level I left the government to come to law school. During the three years I was in law school, there was a statutory increase. And so the GS9 salary was 400 dollars a year more than it was when I left. So I improved my economic state by 400 dollars at three years of rather unpleasant ... I shouldn't say the total experience at Madison was unpleasant. Law school was a chore, which I did. There were other parts of it that were pleasant enough. I had a circle of friends, some of whom I've maintained throughout the years.
[02:18:10] Allright, so. I got some interviews in Washington DC, the knock onthe door thing. These were people that Nad had written. Two of them in particular Tom Harris was the Associate General Counsel of the AFL-CIO, or was it just ... Yeah, it was AFL-CIO, 'cause this was post '55.
WEISBERGER: [02:18:30] They had merged.
JONES JR.: [02:18:31] They had merged. Plato Papas was the general counsel ofmachinists. And he was one the mate's contact and stuff. I had an interview in Plato Papas' office and called up and said I was here, and had to apply by them, and come in and talk. And we were looking at briefs and yacking, and so forth. And I thought, "Man, this is really nice." Maybe there's something here. And I met with Tom Harris, and they didn't have a job. He was just well, [inaudible 02:19:10]. And by the way, Tom was from Little Rock, Arkansas.
[02:19:16] And his home place and mine were about eight blocks apart, differentneighborhoods, but I could have run from my house to his house. We were both long gone from Little Rock, at any rate. And Tom was such a fabulous person, and one of the more liberal ... He was a southerner, by the way, but he caught all that other junk. But he said-- he'd be very practical--he said to me once in a conversation, he said, "You know, it's gonna be a little more difficult to get you employed by a trade union, more difficult than Hugh Hayfer and Dick Donaldson," my classmates. The three of us were the labor skates in that class. Tom Crowmarty was just a little bit at the edge, but we were Nate's boys. And both of them got offers from union side law firms. Hugh went to Milwaukee, and Dick went to Seattle and became partners. No, then Hugh left Padway, Goldberg and Premium and went to Seattle and joined up with Dick, and they became partners in the Seattle law office. Hugh was doing the heavy lifting and they were working on making partner over that. Anyway, Tom Harris said with a twinkle in his eye, it's much easier to place Dick and Hugh. After all, they're catholic.
WEISBERGER: [02:20:43] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.: [02:20: 46] Well, he knew what he was telling me, and he knew that Igot it, right? So anyhow, but, I got nothing. The interview with Plato. Several years later I was at a party, an integrated party over in D.C. See, with my miscellaneous connections in school, I always had a huge it was a substantial integrated circle of friends. Washington was a Jim Crow town at the time. So I was in three communities really: the black regular community, the integrated job community downtown, plus I had friends who worked in other places who were connected with us from either Illinois, and Wisconsin and the spin off. I was at this party sitting on the floor, and everybody's about half drunk. And this guy came over and he said, "You know, I've been wanting to tell you this for a long time." He said, "I'm just drunk enough now to tell you." And he said, "Don't repeat it really, 'cause I still work there." He said, "But you remember when you were being interviewed by the legal office and the machinist?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "I've been mad about that for two years. That was absolute fraud. We didn't even have a black janitor. They wasn't about to hire a negro lawyer, or in a professional job." Anyway-
WEISBERGER: [02:22:26] So there you are, still without a job.
JONES JR.: [02:22:27] Yeah, but finally I get the labor department interview,and they were talking about starting over as a brand new lawyer, and I'm admitted to the Bar, so I'm ready to go so they could offer me a GS7. Had I not passed the bar yet, I would've gone on as a temp at a five til after I passed the bar. And I kept saying, "You know, it's not about money, but I really feel unloved, or whatever it is." I was a nine when I left the government to go to law school. You guys want me to start all over again. Since when I first got my job, my federal job out of graduate school, I started as a seven. It was the bottom rung of the Master's econ and so forth, and so on. So anyway, they called me up.
[02:23:22] Somebody called me up the next week and said, "Mister Rothman' sayswe can offer you a nine." And I said, "Okay. I'll take it." Reluctantly, I figured, heaven forbid I have to do fairly the standard stuff of the labor department, or unemployment comp, whatever the wagon of Peyser stuff was, but I can learn, you know. This notion that if you're still learning something, then it's worth it -
WEISBERGER: [02:23:57] It's worth while.
JONES JR.: [02:23:58] Right. And you know, what am I, single? I have no debts.Right? I'm getting bored and my money's getting a little low, and the options would've been to go out to California since I had some classmates, some friends from Lincoln who were practicing law. And they could do it in California, I could do it; go out there and just get in the general practice, do something 'til I pass the bar then start practicing and see what goes. See, I had no ultimate objective in life except do something useful.
WEISBERGER: [02:24:39] Yeah, I was gonna say, it's not just something oranything, it's useful.
JONES JR.: [02:24:43] Useful, make a contribution.
WEISBERGER: [02:24:44] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [02:24:45] And money was a secondary consideration, always. Money wasyou pay the rent, eat, a little bit left over, right? A hedge against the need next time. Always have a contingency, always best you have it. So what the heck? You know, five thousand dollars, I'm gonna be rich again, I ain't gonna spend all of that right? I don't know what the living is in ...
WEISBERGER: [02:25:18] D.C.
JONES JR.: [02:25:18] D.C, but I knew that the range of blacks and employment inthe federal Government, and GS9 was at the upper edge, not the bottom edge. Most of them were wage grade like my stepfather. He died working for the veteran's administration in the vet's hospital, high school education. By God, best job he ever had in his life. He was really a super laborer, 'cause he was the top of the labor grade side, 5200 dollars a year, best job he ever had in his life. And that's substantially after what I'm talking about.
[02:25:57] He was working in the vet's administration when I went to the labordepartment. As a matter of fact, the good thing about him landing that government job in Little Rock, is I no longer had to worry about my mother since he had a steady GI check, and she had her little home beauty parlor. She opened up a little beauty parlor in the house that she could do as little, or as much work as she wanted to do with her clients. And so she was first time in our lives we ... I look after myself, right? My sister was married to a kid we also knew in kindergarten.
[02:26:45] By the way, she was six months older than he was. And they stayedmarried for 47 years. Now when we were growing up with all these miscellaneous break ups and the old moralistic old folks they ought to take those two children away from that girl. She ought to have sense enough running around with all them miscellaneous men. It's me and my sister. Particularly, when my grandmother died and my mother's husband number three tried to kill her, tried to bash her brains out, and that didn't work. And he shot her. It was in the paper, and they talk about black folks in the paper when there's something something bad.
[02:27:39] And so, she was she died with buck shots but three inches fromher heart, they never did get t all the way out. And trouble comes in bunches. That shortly after that, we moved in with my rich aunt across the street with my grandmother who was dying of ovarian cancer. So my mother was trying to get her health back to go back to work. Her mother was upstairs dying.
WEISBERGER: [02:28:17] Dying.
JONES JR.: [02:28:20] And I never recovered from my grandma's death.
WEISBERGER: [02:28:25] Well the title of your autobiography shows the close connection.
JONES JR.: [02:28:30] I mean, in the period link she was out of her head, and soI would go in the room where she was quartered. The other kids were scared to go in there. They thought cancer was catchy, and so I didn't give a damn, and I realize now she was out of it, but I'd go in and sit with her. And I remember now when the undertakers came and they took her out. She was a chubby lady, and she was kinda wobbling around on this thing, like just a piece of meat that just killed me.
[02:29:04] That was my heart and soul. And I look back on it you see, my motherdid rid of me. By the time grandma died, I was already a person with too much perception I guess and concerns about stuff. I was already away and working and so her mother actually raised her two kids. We ended up the three of us, we were a team and had to do it all until we got this new fella, who was really a gem. He was a gentle drunk. And throughout the marriage, he'd bring his paycheck home, and sign it and put it on the table, pick up his change for his lunch money ... Never touched her. And they were married for about 28 years.
[02:29:58] They weren't married for one year. I told her the first time we hadbreakfast together if he ever did, I'd kill him. And he knew it wasn't a bluff, 'cause I tried to kill that other guy and hadn't been for my grandmother, I would've two weeks before he almost killed mom. He was beating her in the room with us. It's a little three room house and I quietly hear him up there, and I had this little single shot rifle that he gave me and taught me to use, and I could ... At 20 yards, I could strike a match with a 22 rifle without breaking the stand. That's huge.
WEISBERGER: [02:30:37] Yeah, you knew how.
JONES JR.: [02:30:38] But if my mother would've stopped moving, with one littlebullet, I was gonna put it right there. Had that happened, I-
WEISBERGER: [02:30:45] Your life would've certainly-
JONES JR.: [02:30:47] Totally different. I probably would've ... He didn't spendbut a year and a half in jail for trying to kill her. Got out, and came back and kidnapped her and probably raped her, but they didn't share with ... I went looking for him to kill him again and almost killed him again. So these kids want to talk to me about hard times? Can't match my story.
WEISBERGER: [02:31:18] That's true. I have to admit that.
JONES JR.: [02:31:24] Now this is just a little of me, you know, the business ofjust enough food to go around. And there wasn't no relief. And if there had been, we were probably too proud to take it. Strange people. Anyway, so education, education, they get out of the All right, so I take the job in the labor department. I go to work in the office of the solicitor, the division of legislation and general legal services. I could not have designed a better job for me.
WEISBERGER: [02:31:56] Was it sheer luck, or were they smart enough to knowsomething about you at the beginning?
JONES JR.: [02:32:05] Sheer luck on my part. I'm just applying to the office. Idon't know anything about that they had multiple divisions. But my hindsight was they wanted me because of my dual degree. They won't pay me for it, but the legislation division didn't have an economic research back up for anything but barely the standards. Following the standards, they had a whole bureaucratic structure, one division of the law office. Two divisions, 'caus the litigation division and the interpretation division. Although, interpretations handle a bunch of other stuff, but the litigation was ... The labor department was the only agency other than justice department that had the statutory authority to prosecute cases in the name of the secretary of labor by their own attorneys. You only include that language in the statute
WEISBERGER: [02:33:06] The justice department.
JONES JR.: [02:33:08] The justice department takes the legal stuff. And whenthey passed Landrum and Griffin, that language wasn't in there, and so justice took the Landrum-Griffin enforcement except the junk stuff, and cases that they say, "Oh, this is a loser." We'll let labor litigate it. They can always delegate and the lousy cases they would delegate. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of the story.
WEISBERGER: [02:33:33] Okay, so-
JONES JR.: [02:33:36] Not only my dual educational background, my strong laborlaw stuff of Wisconsin and the fact that I had worked professionally in the non-law and in my graduate program had been a reach assistant, all this factored into the people in legislation. It turned out almost every body had multiple qualifications. And here I guess is one of the things I never knew until after the fact, didn't really appreciate the significance until much, much later. One of the supervising lawyers was E. Gerald Lamboley, 1936 LLB University of Wisconsin.
WEISBERGER: [02:34:20] That's it.
JONES JR.: [02:34:21] His niece lives here now, Jerry's still alive. I met herat something and noticed that name, and I said, "You wouldn't be ... Would you be related to Jerry Lamboley?" She said, "That's my uncle. I'm on my way now to see him. He's in a nursing home. He's 90 something years old." Well he was one of those supervising lawyers in legislation. And one of the other beginning, the first level supervisors was Edith Nancy Cook who was born in Madison, Wisconsin. When her famous father Walter Wheeler Cook was on this faculty. And she went to Goucher and went to Columbia, one of the early women, and went to work in the labor field, which was more accessible particularity after Francis Perkins.
[02:35:13] And even with the shifts in the administrations that were .even in the state of the labor department, so one of the things I discovered at the labor department, they had a bunch of women lawyers. One of the division chiefs was a woman, Carin Clauss' mentor, strikingly beautiful, never married, had all three law degrees. Bessie Margolin, she rose to the top of the litigation division. And Earl Warren said she was the best appellate lawyer in the United States. I'm sure Bessie agreed. At the time that I knew the record, she had argued 48 cases in the supreme court of the United States. And he lost two.
WEISBERGER: [02:36:10] That's not a bad record.
JONES JR.: [02:36:11] She didn't admit she lost them. She said, "We lost thedecision, but I won the opinion." And I understood the importance of that. Since in the labor department you got your own litigation program, you could guide the shape of the law by which you prosecute and push, alright? And if the decision comes out, but if you get the language out of the opinion that you were looking for, then you go back and change the rule system a little bit and now you got a clear line to go back up there again. She was very meticulous. She was authoritarian and probably the worst administrator in the world, but lawyers aren't good administrators.
WEISBERGER: [02:36:52] Yeah. Unfortunately, there are too many examples of thePeter principle, getting promoted based on one set of skills into a job
JONES JR.: [02:37:04] And then you get stuck with something, you're supposed todo something else, and you know, it gets done one way or the other. But when you have a system like that, and the person at the top insisted everything has to go through their hands an you can't do but so much. Anyway, I worked with Bessie even a few times on supreme court matters, which wasn't the labor department's business. They'd come out of a legislation bill and I was kind of a ... Even though I was a runt down at the bottom frequently, I was pointing in on stuff because If it was labor relation stuff, Bill Evans and Edith Cook would et leadership assignments, and then they would squabble about which one of them got Jim Jones.
[02:37:49] Edith usually won 'cause they made her ... Sheer luck, they put me inthe office with her. They asked me "Do you smoke cigars?" I said, "No. I smoke. I smoke but I have a cigarette with a cup of coffee or something. I don't smoke at my desk." They said, "Fine, you get the desk, that empty desk in the office with Edith Cook," who was a great arrangement. We became a fabulous team, and she was my mentor in a sense that you didn't have a word for that. But I'm a junior lawyer, and she's the senior lawyer, and I'm working with her, and she's giving me whatever assignments that ... And she was wonderful, and I learned a lot about using the steps just from working with her. So when I became a boss, one of the things, one of the things that were not generally done, I institutionalized.
[02:38:54] Telling you about Bessie Margolin, asked me once, "Where did youlearn all this administrative stuff?" And I took over an office and we did stuff that nobody believed. That little new operation with that law that hardly exists and so few people, none of them with any ... There weren't any courses in this stuff, could possibly be the stuff they were dumping on us. And we blew them away. Really, because the young people only ... They wasn't involved in our end. I was involved in training in the junk we did. Most of the stuff was in there I had worked on something or the other. And I let lawyers be lawyers.
WEISBERGER: [02:39:42] June 23rd, 2004. Okay, you first started with the labordepartment in 1956.
JONES JR.: [02:39:49] Right, September '56.
WEISBERGER: [02:39:52] Okay.
JONES JR.: [02:39:52] And shortly thereafter, Congress got into theLandrum-Griffin stuff, to regulate internal union affairs. That's a legislative matter, right?. The labor department was in the middle of that. James Mitchell was secretary of labor. Stuart Rothman was the solicitor, and he was my boss. And the Eisenhower administration was interested in regulated unions, and the actual staff worked for the Eisenhower administration It's ultimate bill was drafted in the solicitor's office in the legislation division.
[02:40:39] And I was a key player of a small team of about five of us thatworked on it for the whole two years before it was passed. And as a matter of fact, I covered the first three days of the McClellan hearing To show you how important it was, a guy who's hardly wet behind the years, but see, I'd been in ... I'd only been there a year. So they sent me up to cover the hearing and takes notes. And after three days, I came back and banged out on a typewriter with my terrible typing a little memo that said, "The McClellan committee is holding hearings to line up witnesses to establish factual predicate to support the union and the law to regulate the internal affairs of unions covering the following areas:" in twenty two short paragraphs. Twenty of them are in the Landrum-Griffin law now.
[02:41:47] And the two that are not in there, Jimmy Hoffa's lobbyist, a guynamed Sidney Zagri, blocked those two and cut them out. But we drafted the Eisenhower-Kearns bill and I drafted considerable chunks of it. Anything relating to labor would funnel through the labor department for the secretary of labor--who's the chief policy officer's-- input even if it's the laws that labor had nothing to do with administering. Only one policy office, one department, that's the secretary of labor. The NLRB's substantive people did not appear before congress to make suggestions about substantive law. They only talked about process and stuff like that.
[02:42:41] So the secretary of labor had to carry that weight. The labor act hadmiscellaneous entities to it. So somebody in legislation had to be keeping an eye on these areas and have some familiarity with those that already exist. Then other areas that were around the ragged edge, there's no place else to put them, you put them in in legislation. So that's why it was important that they have people who had some sort of research sense. The people told me that Rothman considered legislation division is fair hand lads. Legislation and litigation were the prime cut, so he was always sensitive to who was gonna work there.
WEISBERGER: [02:43:31] Of course, it was the most visible too, politically visible.
JONES JR.: [02:43:36] Well, litigation, unless you followed that arcane stuff,didn't get
WEISBERGER: [02:43:42] Legislation certainly was.
JONES JR.: [02:43:45] And he was since the interface with probably the otherpolicy officers, we wrote letters for the rest of them. They sifted through the law office and went round to them. If it was anything of any significance, the secretary appeared to testify in before the congressional committee [inaudible 2:44:06]. And the lawyer that did the real work might with luck get a chance to carry the brief case even though he wouldn't sit at the table and your name wouldn't be in the Anyway, it was to some extent like continued graduate school, right? And I've got an arrangement with the librarian, a law librarian to let me have a look at law reviews before he cataloged them. I would turn around quickly to look and see if there's anything in it that would be
WEISBERGER: [02:44:46] Relevant.
JONES JR.: [02:44:47] Going on in our shop, and I did that on my own,particularly in Landrum-Griffin. They're looking for ... I mean, what? If somebody said, "What kind of fiduciary obligation are you gonna impose on you?" What are they talking about? I mean, there's a whole category of law involved in the law of trust, etc. that has to do with ... I said, "You gonna put all that in the statute, or you gonna write?" We had sort of the intellectual problems that you would hardly imagine.
WEISBERGER: [02:45:23] But that sounds like a heady time.
JONES JR.: [02:45:27] Well, you know what? I was so busy in trying to beassured, I wasn't embarrassing to myself of anybody else, that it takes you a while before you get a bigger picture of this.
WEISBERGER: [02:45:38] That's true.
JONES JR.: [02:45:40] The more it went on, the more I could see the breadth ofit. And by the time I got to be a ... We got up to the sort of a little bit visible and other people start trying to get you, a number of things are invisible too, the business of it's time to get some black folks around here. Right. Then you get a real view, and I thought about this, and I tell students this now. You know, when I left the labor department, the labor department administrated 166 separate statutes. The NLRB has only part of one. Okay? Where do you think is the better law branches, right? I turned down going to the board at least three times after ... I mean going to motions, and Rothman went over there as general counsel and within six months, Bill Evans who was sort of Edith's twin went with Rothman. He sent Bill to try get me to come over for a substantial promotion and a supervisor job, and I turned him down. They tried twice I think as a matter-
WEISBERGER: [02:47:11] Was it easy turning down these?
JONES JR.: [02:47:13] Yeah, by that time it was for two reasons. I didn't wannago over there a rookie Rothman had a terrible reputation of being a slave driver. He was gonna change a lot of stuff, and I'm gonna be supervising those guys over there that are administrating that one piece of that law with a little bit I know about the realities of it and the new bosses' guy. I mean, you gotta be kidding. I don't agree with the way Rothman would be getting the work done. I had by that time a notion of, there's a better way to get people's loyalty. But you start behind the eight ball if you would of ... I said, besides, it's a little late.
[02:48:03] By this time, we got so much stuff going on over here, why the heckshould I go over ? I have more input in the legislative arena then them guys over there, 'cause when it comes up to the top now, now I'm at the point where Edith has moved on up, so she's at a real supervisor level, and if it's with the labor relation,. I'm gonna et it. And eventually, I became a counsel for labor relations and general legal service, and I got to a GS15. Before that, I was something... There's a story about when I became principle attorney.
WEISBERGER: [02:48:39] Okay.
JONES JR.: [02:48:40] GS14. The first time in the use of the labor timedepartment that a black had been promoted to principle attorney. I didn't know that until many years later sitting in this chair and saw this. A fellow named George W. Crockett, the black students had him. He was a judge and a congressman from the Detroit area ultimately, and he was out here and came in to visit with me. And I knew that he had been in the labor department, the 11th labor department 1941. Black guy.
[02:49:19] So we were talking and he mentioned that he had left the department.I connected. I told him, "I know who you are. You used to be in the solicitor's office. I come out of the solicitor's office, you left, blah, blah, blah" And he told me a story of why he left. He said, "You know, one of my white liberal friends told me, I was a GS13. And they told me, 'George you oughta get the hell out of here. You're never going to do 14. The world is not ready for a principle attorney who's negro, and you're too good to be locked in at your level." Now his level, the black community was ... He's a what? That's unbelievable you get that far.
[02:50:00] But they told him forget it, get out of here and go do something elsewith yourself. And then it hit me, it took them a year to get my paperwork through, after they sat at the shop. And Edith was the partner in there. She was, I guess she was either the assistant solicitor for the legislation or the associate. I think she was the assistant by then. Which meant by then we had two women, four divisions, and two of them were headed by women. And the senior division head was Bessie. Bessie had been in her job 30, 40 years when I got appointed to the division. In her job, not just in that job as the chief.
WEISBERGER: [02:50:53] Okay.
JONES JR.: [02:50:54] Anyway, this stuff kept coming back and coming back fromwherever. And we were sitting in her office one day. And I don't know when this was, I could be wrong. And the paperwork came back. I was sitting there and we were working on something. And she looked ... Kenny put it by her and she looked at it, and she got red and started to cry, and picked it up, and charged out. I don't know where she went. She was furious. Well, I hadn't realized at the time what the petition really was. I let them whatever it was, and dragging their feet because ... well, later on I saw a memorandum written, a confidential memorandum in the security files. Yeah, it was confidential because it was political, right?
WEISBERGER: [02:51:52] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [02:51:52] It was an analysis, a whole profile of the labordepartment and the use of minorities. It was a confidential memo to the secretary of labor which said: "The only black ... " Whatever, he didn't use the term blacks. The only black career, GS14, we have in the labor department, in the entire labor department, is Jim Jones in the solicitor's office. And it had a breakdown of all the categories, and how many people were in them.
WEISBERGER: [02:52:27] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.: [02:52:27] And so we had ... the only people we had above the GS14level who were black were political appointees. So when I made 14, it was a historic, you know, first for a black.
WEISBERGER: [02:52:42] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.: [02:52:43] And then I didn't stop. I went 15 and 16.
WEISBERGER: [02:52:46] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.: [02:52:46] Every move up was a first in the history of the labordepartment. And that's the liberal department, right?
WEISBERGER: [02:52:50] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [02:52:50] The liberal department. Can you imagine? Well, anyway. Sowhen George Crocket told me why he left, I said, "Damn!" And then I told him the story that I didn't understand. And he said, "Now you understand." That was really hard to get through the system. But all the noise they were making, the system was, you know, as usual, fraudulent around here, so.
[02:53:22] Okay. I went up the pipe. I went up the ladder. There were kind ofthings that were just sort of mind blowing like the first time I appeared as lawyer of record, on the hill. I'm a turkey, you know.
WEISBERGER: [02:53:36] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.: [02:53:37] I think the first one I went at was, Mitchell was stillsecretary of labor. And I was working on the secondary boycott thing. And one of the assistant secretaries testified. And I wrote the testimony, and went up the hill with them. And I went up with the under secretary once, Jack O'Connell. My most celebrated one was during the Kennedy Administration, when Arthur Goldberg was secretary of labor. And by this time, the senior democrat in the house, of the labor committee, was Adam Powell. And the guy who had been senior, Graham Barton, McCraken, from Kentucky, I believe. And he was the chair, and Adam was, you know, next.
WEISBERGER: [02:54:34] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.: [02:54:35] Graham wouldn't even look at it. Never even called on him.Graham died and Adam became chair, right. Adam had FEPC on the brain, you know, he had been trying to get a fair employment law since he first went to Congress, and it wouldn't go anywhere. Well, he's chair now, and he got this new administration, and he wants the Secretary of Labor to testify on FEPC. This is before the Civil Rights Act.
WEISBERGER: [02:55:05] Right.
JONES JR.: [02:55:05] This is 1961 or '62, I guess. And James Roosevelt's in theCongress. And Jimmy Roosevelt had introduced the exact same, you know, in the House, people agreed, and they introduced in their name the same bill. In the Senate, you know, co-sponsors. Well, Jimmy's bill was the same as Adam's bill. And Adam decided to have hearings on Jimmy's bill. The administration had no position. Big Jack did not want to address the bullet of discrimination. It was too early anyway in the administration. And so you have to get position of administration.
[02:55:46] The process of legislation is very complicated. The Bureau of theBudget, we used to ... it's Budget Management now. All the bills, et cetera, the commentary from the various agencies has to really filter through that, and clear, and they get various sort of clearance. You know, the administration is in support of this. The administration has no objection; you know what I mean? The other ones now, it won't have anything except the word will come from whoever it is to the agency: You can go it on your own, but you can't, you know, indicate we support it and stuff.
WEISBERGER: [02:56:21] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [02:56:21] So there were all these multiple levels of game playing.Anyway, he didn't have any position, and Goldberg was anxious to avoid. He said, get up there, you got to go up and say something. You know, at this point, at the beginning of the 60s, you sure don't want to stir the pot by being against it, right? But you can't really stir it by being for it too either, because you've got so many in your own party. And the Congress is going to sandbag you. So it was a terrible dilemma. And I don't know where big Jack stood on the matter anyway. But he had issued, you know, an executive order, and he had his program put together. So Adam got impatient with, you know, the labor department dancing around the maypole, and not committing to come and testify. So he sent the order down.
[02:57:13] And this administration and the Congress is really wimpy now. But inour day, the President had to be very careful because, you know, you stiff these people, they'd cut your damn budget. They'd find exactly which part of it was your private project, and redline it. So they played hardball and, you know, people were much more respectful, right?
WEISBERGER: [02:57:36] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.: [02:57:37] So Adam got impatient finally and said, "He will appeartomorrow morning at ten o'clock, lead witness and committee." Goldberg was out of town.
[02:57:49] Now, they have a court supervisor. He never got
WEISBERGER: [02:57:56] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [02:57:6] Well, he didn't deserve to be. And he was a klutz and aplug. He was a good hearted guy, you know, but I was having lunch down in the cafeteria. My usual soup and salad and tea and a piece of pie. And Phil came down and said, "Jim, the secretary's got to testify tomorrow at ten o'clock before the House Labor Committee, and you have to write the testimony."
[02:58:24] So I said, "Okay." And proceeded to eat my soup. And he stayed. Hewas drained of color, right?
WEISBERGER: [02:58:33] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.: [02:58:34] He said, "Did you hear what the-
[02:58:36] I said, "Tomorrow at ten o'clock." I looked up and said, "We got 22hours, Phil, it ain't going to get any shorter if I don't finish my lunch."
WEISBERGER: [02:58:47] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.: [02:58:47] I've got a reputation of having ice water in my veins. I'mscared to death, too. But, you know, by this time I'm getting appointed ... I'm the point man. They decide I'm it, well, this is what they get. And I ain't going to, you know. I'm having... I was an ulcer candidate anyways, because we were always in crisis. And I've had this terrible stomach since a kid. I have gastrointestinal something. But we had 22 hours. Usually on a major case, we would have six weeks to prepare on major thing.
WEISBERGER: [02:59:21] (Laughing.) So what did you do with the 22 hours?
JONES JR.: [02:59:24] I wrote some testimony. And I got together whatever scrapsof some ... there had been some sort of hearing once before, when
[02:59:33] Taft was Senator. There was a little booklet that had some stuff init. You know, miscellaneous attempts at an analysis of the bills pending. It wasn't but one. The Roosevelt bill was Adam's bill. And then you get to trying to figure out what other stuff is in the department, that the committee members might have. And they keep saying they got the secretary and they want ... irrelevant to what he is there for.
[03:00:03] But the kind of business of pulling together ... setting out a hotimmediate business ... if any agency ... the entire department said, if you've got anything in there on any of the members, with a list of the members, you got to get the members. Get some way of identifying them. If they got other bills in the hopper. So the secretary-
[03:00:21] -seems knowledgeable on anything. But all that's going on, and I'mtrying to write a statement that doesn't say anything. I mean, it says some nice things about the idea and so forth. And so, well, you know, one thing probably to say is that, you know, we think this is a marvelous idea, et cetera, but this bill is not, you know, we're not in a position to support this bill. But we can offer our technical and support of a ... I mean technical assistance to work with you, to come up with a supportable bill.
WEISBERGER: [03:00:59] Uh- huh.
JONES JR.:[03:01:04] Goldberg was a magician, you know. So we put all of it in,whatever we could get together in the secretary's notebook, after clearing, you know, internal things, testimony and so forth. Took it to the garage, put it on the chauffeur's seat. The chauffer, whatever [inaudible [03:01:33], gets advised that when you get in the limo to pick up the secretary at the airport, you will sit on the briefing book. Give it to him and have immediately, because he has to appear before a committee tomorrow morning at ten o'clock. He was expected back at midnight.
WEISBERGER: [03:01:50] That was tight.
JONES JR.:[03:01:56] That was tight, too. And we got it put together insufficient time, at least to read it, and go home and then come back, because it was actually scheduled at eight o'clock the next morning. There was a briefing session with Secretary as well [inaudible [03:02:11]. He hadn't even seen his testimony yet. (Laughing.) So we, you know, and guess who's-
WEISBERGER: [03:02:23] You're, the guy.
JONES JR.:[03:02:25] As a matter of fact, if you can find the hearing as amatter of record, I'm the secretary's lawyer. Can you imagine [inaudible [03:02:37]. I'm labor lawyer for Mr. Labor Law.
WEISBERGER: [03:02:40] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.:[03:02:41] Secretary Arthur Goldberg, you know, the magician. Which hewas. He just handed it in and the statement was harmless he emoted, and then offered to help.
WEISBERGER: [03:02:56] And it worked?
JONES JR.:[03:02:57] Well, what worked? It didn't work ... it worked right.Guess who got sent up there to be the help. I spent three weeks in the executive session with the House Labor.
WEISBERGER: [03:03:09] Of course, that's great experience.
JONES JR.:[03:03:12] You sound like Stewart Rock. That's great experience, ifyou want to die from pressure. We had no position on nothing.
WEISBERGER: [03:03:18] Oh, dear. Oh, dear.
JONES JR.:[03:03:20] All these policies issues and he was just, you know.They're up there and they had to fast track a bunch of people. They're marking left who's supporting these ... no, no, not that. And then it actually helped them, because it took three other lawyers, including ... I never told you that I got interviewed to death by the NRD people. And the last person that interviewed me ... no, the second to the last, was an assistant general counsel. This is the guy that asked me in view of my background if I think I can be objective in administering the law. And I couldn't imagine how dumb he could be to ask that question. Or maybe how smart, you know. It's like you're not a political pick. But what he's saying is they're cheating.
WEISBERGER: [03:04:12] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:04:13] And that's when I said, well, I guess all this isn't reallyabout labor management relations and labor laws, and them young lawyers that were there. They handicapped me, I guess I have a problem. This guy by this time, again he was so dumb he got booted upstairs. He was now minority, part of minority counsel. House Labor Committee, he wasn't their counsel I don't think. So he was there and there was two people who were from Adam and them's staff. One of them was a beautiful woman, but that isn't why she was there. She was a lawyer, but she was on Adam's [inaudible [03:04:58], and me. And we get this instant, you know, no we need something on there, and this is a part of the law they won't change. And that to reflect whatever or to amend somebody sitting there trying to take out what they object to, but not fix it so it's meaningless. And, you know, you hand them the piece of mail, and they thought that out, and in it would go.
WEISBERGER: [03:05:21] What is it they say, the closer you are to legislation,it's like seeing sausage made; you don't want to.
JONES JR.:[03:05:26] Worse than that. Sausage made in the sewer.
[03:05:32] But anyway we went through the whole thing. And Adam called on me acouple of times for, you know, the administration's position. If you can imagine.
[03:05:47] One of the things that I had anticipated and actually had some inputthat they obviously had to go along with, that bill was going to cover the Wagner Pizer stuff, you know, the federal/ state unemployment compensation, so that they would get those state agencies, and nobody paid much attention. And the labor department went along with it, because they didn't really control the locals, except for the purses string kind of thing, and would get much more leverage if they could. And they just decided, you know, it's the state anyway; you're damn right, we ought to get them if they discriminate.
WEISBERGER: [03:06:25] Yes.
JONES JR.:[03:06:25] Right. So, I went back and got something written, I guess,and brought that back to contribute to Roosevelt, and to put, yeah, back that part. Okay.
[03:06:40] But the first time he called me, it was an absolute blindside. I hadabsolutely no notion. I had learned something by then. They teach you to write or they try to teach you with precision, how to write with precision in law school. The best skill is how to write and seem that you said something without saying it.
WEISBERGER: [03:07:01] That's the most challenging.
JONES JR.:[03:07:02] Or seeing that it said yes, but it really meant no, right?So that first time I was proud of myself. must have talked for three or four minutes. It was, you know, a filibuster. I don't think it even mattered much. It was like, well, thank you very much.
WEISBERGER: [03:07:13] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.:[03:07:16] It was Eisenhower speak.
WEISBERGER: [03:07:17] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.:[03:07:17] (Laughing.) So anyway we, you know, we stood up. And thatwas my ... it's wasn't my first trip up the hill, but that was a major one.
WEISBERGER: [03:07:28] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:07:29] For a state senator and under the circumstances. Crazy.
[03:07:34] Well, after that, you know, the rest of the panics were, you know. Iwas there two hours to write a proposed bill, an amendment to the Taft-Hartley Law that would cover agriculture workers.
WEISBERGER: [03:07:50] Ooh, that's a challenge.
JONES JR.:[03:07:52] It took me about an hour. My roommate at that time had thesame sort of [inaudible [03:08:04]. But this was for some Congressman, and he wasn't introducing nothing. And so but I'm the Taft-Hartley guy, and [inaudible [03:08:09] Williams was the FSLA guy. So somebody posted saying Mr. [inaudible [03:08:15] wants a bill; blah, blah blah, and blah, blah, blah. Right or right, say, well, right or right. So then, two hours he's got to ship it up the hill at three o'clock. So I turned and said, "Milt, you got FLSA, I don't know a damn thing about it. I'm going to take the other." So, you know, those what if kind of things. What I really did was to look at the casual employment to construction kind of approach and use that as the basic knowledge to put the ... you learn a whole lot of stuff, right, on the fly.
[03:08:53] I don't know what else you want to know, but.
WEISBERGER: [03:08:56] Well, you stayed with the labor department until when?
JONES JR.:[03:09:00] September of 1969.
WEISBERGER: [03:09:02] Oh, I see.
JONES JR.:[03:09:03] Oh, I left once. I finally got a shot at a trade union. Ifirst got a shot at it, and then the guy who was pushing me in this first union had been one of the associate surgical professors at Illinois. And he really wanted me.
WEISBERGER: [03:09:20] Right.
JONES JR.:[03:09:21] And he was pushing it. And I got up to the last two people,and Ralph Bergman was his name. Ralph said to me, " Jim, I tried but I couldn't get you." And this was a time when I regretted I hadn't gotten that Ph.D. He said, "We got you and the other person." And the other person had the Ph.D., and he was lawyer. And he was scared of the lawyer.
WEISBERGER: [03:09:53] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:09:53] So I lost out on that one. But somebody else wasinterested. And then Ralph told George Brooks and Sir Gam.
WEISBERGER: [03:10:05]Yep, I know them through the Cornell days.
JONES JR.:[03:10:07] You know them. Okay. Well, they were at Cornell becausethey got fired from the jobs they had in D.C.
WEISBERGER: [03:10:12] I didn't know that.
JONES JR.:[03:10:12] The director and the assistant director of the Pulp,Sulphite and Paper Mill Workers international union, was in the national union research and education department. And they had this slot they wanted filled. And Bergman told them about me, and told me about it, and I applied. And I had this marvelous interview with George and Sarah, and it just went so swimmingly. And so I went back to my office.
TURNER:[03:10:43] This concludes the third interview of the oral history. Thefourth interview conducted on October 4th, of 2004, begins now.
WEISBERGER: [03:10:49] And this is June Weisberger. And I'm sitting in Jim JonesLaw School Office with Professor Jones. And we're going to be doing Tape 4, of an oral history for the university archives.
[03:11:02] Okay. Jim, as I recall, we were talking back in June, about your rolein Landrum-Griffin Legislation, and the fact that there you were, a relatively junior member of the legal staff. And you actually were able to play a very, very key active role.
JONES JR.:[03:11:22] Well, you're being generous. I was a real junior lawyer ofthe legislative staff. Although I had started as a GS9, usually if you were a brand new member of the bar, those days you started at a GS7. I had been a GS9, as an industrial relations analyst, before I ever went to law school. And so they decided that they could hire me at the level that I was before I left to go to law school, because as I suggested to them when they offered me a seven, that I was a nine before I went to law school. They said, "But you are not a lawyer." And I said, "But this is the labor department, and what I was doing was labor, wasn't it?" As a matter of fact, I don't know whether I told them or maybe they checked, there was some interest in me from BLS, in the Chicago region, at a promotion to a GS11. (Laughing.)
WEISBERGER: [03:12:18] (Laughing.) Maybe they checked.
JONES JR.:[03:12:21] I wasn't going to, you know, take a job for six months. Itold people anyway, that in six months I'm going to law school, but I'd come to work for you. And nobody was interested in a temp. And working in factories and places that I got turned down because I would write down all this education. They would look down and say, what the heck? And I then I would tell them. I couldn't convince them that ... but, you know, for six months you'd have stable worker that's going to work hard. But, you know, it's funny, that's history.
[03:12:55] So here I was, and it was early one in the ... I started in the labordepartment in September of 1956. And I think Landum-Griffin started early part of the next year. Well, we're in legislation. And one of the things that we ... I say we now, because again even when I got up at the top, I did the same thing. When there was something in Congress that was obviously going to generate business for the labor department, legislative committee hearings, somebody from our staff, one of the staff would be sent up to cover the hearing. So I got tapped to cover the first three days of the McClellan hearings. Bob Kennedy was counsel. Didn't know anything to speak of it seemed. And was really abusive of witnesses, I thought. But anyway, it meta morphed into something entirely differently. I mean he was bratty little, oppressive, and pushy ... anyhow.
[03:14:09] But I covered the first three days. And I went back to the typewriterand banged out on the typewriter. And my typing was never that great. And at that point, you know, with strike overs, and you didn't have all the sophisticated stuff we have now. And we weren't really into the dictation mode, which I got later on, because they couldn't read my handwriting. And I passed this on to my immediate supervisor, who was Edith Nancy Cooper. One of the lawyer daughters of the famous Walter Wheeler Cooper, who taught at the University of Wisconsin. And Edith was in fact born in Madison.
WEISBERGER: [03:14:53] Interesting connection.
JONES JR.:[03:14:54] And then she went out east, grew up, went to [inaudible[03:14:57], and went to Columbia Law School. This was when, you know. And she was at least the beginning supervisor. And for a woman in law, in 1956, and she wasn't the only one in the labor department. We probably had more women lawyers in the labor department than they had in the rest of the government, working as lawyers.
[03:15:15 Anyway, I had banged out this report, and given it to Edith. And itsaid, "I have monitored the first three days of the hearing. It is my sense or opinion that they are getting evidence and a witness list, et cetera, to establish ... and I don't think I used this term but I wish I had ... "factual predicate. Pass a law regulating internal affairs of unions, covering the following matters: And there followed twenty-two short paragraphs. Twenty-one of those areas ended up in-
WEISBERGER: [03:15:56] Landrum-Griffin.
JONES JR.:[03:15:57] -in the final Landrum-Griffin Act. And the only reason thatall twenty-two didn't make it in, is a guy named Sidney Zigori, who was a Washington lawyer lobbyist, for the Teamsters, it was one of Hoffa's lawyers, and he blocked two of those things, and they didn't make it out.
[03:16:16] Well, you know, Landrum-Griffin, there were five different versionsof that bill, of a bill, rather. One of them was drafter in our office, and introduced in the Senate by Senator Goldwater, and in the House by Congressman Kerns, from Illinois. That's Kerns with a K-e-r-n-s. And that was the administrations board. And they all covered the same areas. And they all had ... and the last title of it amended the National Labor Relations Act. And we have, I believe, the administration's push, certainly their PR for the organization recognition picketing provision; which the White House labeled blackmail picketing. I used to hate that terminology, by the way. It was just so, come on. But at any rate.
[03:17:11] So I don't know where Howard ended up. But, you know, it was a draftpiece of paper. And one day I was sitting in the office, and the door burst open, and there stood Waffling, who was a strange dude. He was a solicitor of labor. And he had this grubby piece of, you know, this thing in his hand, and I was so embarrassed. And he shook it in my face and he said, "This is the kind of work we really expected to get out of you." And then he closed the door and left.
[03:17:40] And I said, "Edith, who sent that? At least somebody could have hadit re-typed, with these strike overs and re-iterations and so forth. I don't even know what Edith said. She mumbled something, I guess, about everybody was so startled, you know, that we couldn't wait to get the boss to see it. So that's the first thing that I can remember that he ever ... because, see, people talk behind your back. You don't know good or bad what's going on. But, anyway, I was thinking afterwards, well, if that's what you expected to get, why did you offer me a lousy G9. You all should have given me more money.
JONES JR.:[03:18:20] (Laughing.)
JONES JR.:[03:18:21] Now our kids ... now I'm switching. Our kids from theuniversity here, since I've come back to teach, that start out with the combination that I brought to the trade-
WEISBERGER: [03:18:34] The IRN Law Degree?
JONES JR.:[03:18:36] -would start at least at years 12, if not at 13, and way upthe ladder. It took me I don't know how many years to get up to GS13. Now, maybe they should have started at that. But by the time you're 13, you were sort of first-level supervision.
WEISBERGER: [03:18:48] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:18:49] Working with a, what do you call, crew leader or somethinglike that. And maybe even beyond that. But I guess the government might argue that you're a supervisor, since you participated in recommendations about who's going to be hired. And might even be asking about how somebody, like how John Bell performed, right, for his next promotion or something like that. But anyway, so that's how it all started. And I worked on Landum-Griffin from that first three days, until it was cemented.
WEISBERGER: [03:19:21] So that was a couple of years, wasn't it?
JONES JR.:[03:19:22] Yes. It got passed in September of 1959. Maybe it wasn'tquite about that. Yeah, '57 or '59. And we drafted the Goldwater/Kerns bill in the legislation division of the Swift results. So some of the stuff in that bill is pure Jim Jones.
WEISBERGER: [03:19:44] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:19:44] I mean O'Laughlin was a guy to work for. You know, aMinnesota Republican,
WEISBERGER: [03:19:51] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:19:51] Jewish. It was really difficult. But he encouraged you touse your imagination and your mind. I mean analyze everything you can possibly come up with, problems, because you know he didn't want any ... he wanted to know everything.
WEISBERGER: [03:20:07] Any booby traps. Right.
JONES JR.:[03:20:09] Right. So it was great training to grow up under thatsystem, though it was really kind of oppressive. But it taught you, you know, research a certain way, total coverage. And then in the end, when you analyze stuff, the political stuff, the whatever it is; at the bottom line, he wanted to know supposed you had all the votes, how would you do it. Which was really almost like being in graduate school, right?
WEISBERGER: [03:20:33] Right.
JONES JR.:[03:20:33] So some of the stuff, you know, got picked out of the air.There are some provisions of the Goldwater bill that are pure Jim Jones. I mean, I'll tell you what I did. I put something in the bill. I don't know where. That essentially, and now you would think this is quintessential republican theology, right? I said, "Look, minimal government." Right? Voluntary and such. Why not put in the structure that here are standards. And if a union puts all this stuff in their constitution, government takes a look at it, and approves it; then they will get some concessions in terms of their reporting and disclosure stuff, and performance, right?
WEISBERGER: [03:21:16] Uh-huh.
JONES JR.:[03:21:16] So here you get self compliance, and don't have to get themoney to monitor them.
WEISBERGER: [03:21:20] Yeah.
JONES JR.:[03:21:20] And O'Laughlin & Mitchell, who was Secretary of Labor-
WEISBERGER: [03:21:26] They loved it.
JONES JR.:[03:21:28] Yeah. So that was in there. And, actually, it was modeledin my mind, from the cupboard and re-board concept from the United Auto Workers constitution. I did my Master's thesis on the UAW constitution.
WEISBERGER: [03:21:46] I didn't know that.
JONES JR.:[03:21:47] Yeah.
WEISBERGER: [03:21:50] See, one of the advantages of doing this, I get to knowthings I never knew.
JONES JR.:[03:21:51] Neither did the current president of the United AutoWorkers. Although, I don't even know the previous ones, what they looked at. But the UAW passed the first Civil Rights Constitutional Provision in their collective bargaining. They had a whole lot of anti-communist stuff in there, trying to anticipate where maybe, you know, the Hoffa-driven hearings were going to go. And they put a lot of stuff in. The put the public review board in there, on that period. Having been aware of the UAW's constitution stuff, when the public review board thing came on stream for them, you know, I was also aware of that. And I can't remember, but maybe ... but anyway, this notion of if he could get the unions to do it themselves, that would encourage the reform that they're talking about, and it would be cost effective. And so the Goldwater folks adopted that.
WEISBERGER: [03:22:53] Yeah.
JONES JR.:[03:22:55] The other stuff, the secondary boycott stuff and all that,the Taft-Hartley stuff, that was Edith and Bill Evans, and me I'm the Junior. But that was because the other degree in the labor management stuff, gave me a leg up, plus going to this law school, with ten credits in labor law. I was the most qualified worker that you could find in the United States, right? And they exploited it. I had a ball. I was up to my eyebrows in all sorts of this fancy stuff. I didn't realized much later that, you know, people should have paid you for that.
WEISBERGER: [03:23:31] ( Laughing.)
JONES JR.:[03:23:31] You know. So normal about how this stuff goes. Same thingwhen I was in real estate. You're getting to really use your maximum talent, and some that you don't have. You're going to have somebody pay you more for this, right?
WEISBERGER: [03:23:46]That sounds like a very heavy time.
JONES JR.:[03:23:51] Oh, yeah. Well, look, the entire 13 years or so I was inthe labor department was heavy. It was one sort of thing like this after another. Because think about it, you're in legislation and general legal service. Legislation is a law that ain't, or a law that is that needs fixing.
WEISBERGER: [03:24:10] Fixing, right.
JONES JR.:[03:24:12] General legal services, anything that doesn't fit in themandate of the Labor Department, that has any relationship to labor or whatever, has to be addressed somewhere, because the Secretary of Labor is the principle policy spokesman for any administration. It's the only cabinet officer for labor. Whether it's railway labor or NLRB, agricultural workers, or public sector workers, it's gonna come through the secretary of labor.
[03:24:44] The legislation division sort of interfaced with the policy makers,because programs that were already established had their folk running 'em and so to put all of this-
WEISBERGER: [03:24:58]New stuff.
JONES JR.:[03:24:59] The new stuff, particularly since it also wouldn't befrequently we had tremendous political implications.
WEISBERGER: [03:25:04] Policy implications.
JONES JR.:[03:25:07] Rothman's approach, so some people who didn't have theinteresting stuff we had used to be envious until they figured out we were working 80 hours a week and not getting overtime for it, but they used to talk about the fair head lads. Lads, by the way, even though there were at least four women in the [crosstalk [03:25:29].
[03:25:28] And the other one was litigation. It worked around the clock too, andthat's where Carin Clauss came in. Anyway, Landrum-Griffin started it and when Landrum-Griffin, after two years of living with it when it was passed and the labor department got a bunch of administrative responsibilities, well they had to sorta recruit from amongst the people already working, if folks would be interested in joining the new law firm. It circulated, if you're interested, indicate to them. Harold Nystrom, who was the acting chief by this time, when he got all the stuff together, he sent for me and he said, "Jim, I noticed that you didn't indicate a preference for joining the new Landrum-Griffin Unit."
[03:26:17] I said, "That's right." He said, "I would try to respect yourpreference, but I might have to transfer you in it if there are not enough people that wanna go that gives the new unit strength." Now that was a compliment but I was like, "I sure hope they don't have to do that," 'cause God, by that time I hated the thing. There was so many things in it that I thought shouldnt've been there and the way they were staffing up with three commissions and they were bringing in somebody from the FBI. These people now think that they're the [inaudible [03:27:01] of trade unions. It's like Russia. This is not to impose to take over the operation of unions, this is to encourage unions to do what they oughta do. This is the mechanism that will encourage you and if not, then your members will sue you.
[03:27:20] And we discovered something that Bessie Marvin, the famous BessieMarvin stopped by my office one Saturday and she'd been reading a new bill, see what's in there for litigation, with her southern drawl said, "Jim, you realize that," or "don't you realize ..." I don't know how she put it but I was the one she was talking to. It's my bill. What about these other people at the top? "The problem is it's not gonna have enforcement authority in this building." I said, "What are you talking about? The Secretary of Labor is the complaining party." She said, "Yeah, I know, but it doesn't say in the bill that he can prosecute the cases by his own attorneys. And without that by his own attorneys, [crosstalk [03:28:20]. It's the Justice Department, Title 28.
JONES JR.:[03:28:26] Nobody but nobody-
WEISBERGER: [03:28:27] Had brought that up before.
JONES JR.:[03:28:29] I mean, I'm a junior guy, after all, this is from way up,and I'm thinking, where are all these other people up there all the way up to the GS-15 level and been in legislation, some of them since the Fair Labor Standards Act was passed, where they do have litigation authority. Bessie, being a bureaucrat, you know, if it's litigation it's gonna be hers. And I'm thinking, that's interesting since I don't know whether that was an early period when Bessie actually talked to me but she was really sort of, if you weren't at the proper level, you didn't exist. But I might've ... I guess she had finally discovered by then that I was a real person worth-
WEISBERGER: [03:29:17] Talking with?
JONES JR.:[03:29:18] Yes, because I had been involved in two Supreme Courtbriefs and memos that filtered through her shop before they went other places. And since her shop didn't have the legal expertise for these labor management stuff, but we didn't have ... well, probably Jerry Lamboley would argue that, but I graduated from this law school in '36 and this was one of my supervisors and had written the longest brief that anybody had filed. 140-something page brief is hardly a brief. So Jerry ... I don't think Edith was ever in litigation ... but some of them ... the turf battle, " If it's litigation, it's mine." And unfortunately they didn't send it to her 'cause she would've been looking-
WEISBERGER: [03:30:09] Exactly [crosstalk [03:30:10]
JONES JR.:[03:30:09] Specifically for that and I said, wait a minute ... and itwas simple, that's just one phrase. Now Justice Department wouldn't miss what you're doing. So on the turf battles. And maybe somebody raised that and the powers that be said, no. This is against labor unions so we're not gonna give that enforcement to the Labor Department. We'll give it to Justice. Y'all have to work together, but Justice would have [inaudible [03:30:38].
WEISBERGER: [03:30:37] There's some logic in that, isn't there?
JONES JR.:[03:30:38] Well, that's true if you decide the Labor Department isn'ttrustworthy but that's not true.
WEISBERGER: [03:30:43] Well, yeah, I didn't mean because of that, but it mightbe perceived by the union community ...
JONES JR.:[03:30:50] No, by the management community.
WEISBERGER: [03:30:52] By the-
JONES JR.:[03:30:53] Perceived by both-
WEISBERGER: [03:30:55] By both.
JONES JR.:[03:30:56] As a matter of fact, no matter, the union community inWashington is very sophisticated. They knew the Labor Department had a call and the Justice Department was never gonna develop the expertise in the substantive law, so they had [crosstalk [03:31:10] rubbing around in there, just in getting to the list of labor and talking about ... and I suspect if you got all the details from Carin you might found out that ... turn that off.
WEISBERGER: [03:31:26] Okay.
JONES JR.:[03:31:28] So anyway, I didn't go and it ... everybody went, peoplewho were into grubby things, not interesting, so we had plenty of people to go over there and get into that. But I didn't go because it seemed to be the direction that the government was gonna take us I thought was undesirable and furthermore I didn't wanna get locked in with just that narrow thing. Legislation simply had more interesting possibilities and at the time-
WEISBERGER: [03:32:03] It did it turned out.
JONES JR.:[03:32:04] Well, that's true. At the time I was still hoping I wasgonna go get a job at the NLRB. It turned me down in the sense that they interviewed me but never never offered me a job. AnduUltimately when Rothman went to the NLRB as general counsel, the first year he was over there, Bill Evans went with him, he sent Bill back to try to get me and I turned him down at that time.
WEISBERGER:[03:32:38] well,wWhat were some of your next assignments afterLandrum-Griffin passed?
JONES JR.:[03:32:44] Landrum-Griffin. That's probably the most exciting oneduring the pre-Kennedy/Johnson era. Except, say for secondary boycotts and national emergency disputes. The reason I got into that part of it, every time there was a big strike and you're about to run out of the tools for resolving it, neither the Railway Labor Act nor the Taft-Hartley Act has the ultimate resolution. It's a mediation, arbitration ...
WEISBERGER: [03:33:23] Fact-finding.
JONES JR.:[03:33:24] Cooling off period and so forth. And then at the end ofthat a report to the president and he has to go to Congress to get another law to deal with the problem. When it got pretty much to that end, there would be panic in the Labor Department. And as a junior man, for a nasty assignment with a labor management background, if I were the only, I'd be one of the lawyers from the solicitor's office and if it was hot enough, the solicitor himself. And once they sit around and decide which way they're gonna go, the person with the yellow pad at the table is getting down all these specs, and they all go for cocktails and go home and I'm left there trying to draft the damn bill for tomorrow, when they come back to [inaudible [03:34:15].
[03:34:15] So a number of those things came up and I'd be in the middle of that.One of the major things that I got in the secondary boycott stuff was because there was this constant concern that the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Taft-Hartley law involving the construction industry, Denver Building Trades, was over the top. The other thing that they were constantly ... the other side was always yacking about is the excessive power of unions and the exemption from the antitrust law. So two things that were almost recurring themes in whatever Congress of the people were there were these two labor managements and I was always at the beginning of the working with everyone. And one of the things that I find to sort of laugh about at one point I had written ... I guess it was the minority report of the House of Representatives on the amendment to the Taft-Hartley secondary boycott provisions on dealing with the Denver Building Trade's problem. This is joint-site activity and who can do what and why and all that sort of problem.
[03:35:42] And somebody always ... there was a bill in there and whatever gotheard or the committee then there would be the majority report and the minority report. And depends on who was in power at the committee, which sort of tilt the statute would have or the interpretation of the committee. In the beginning, I think the Democrats had control of the House and the Senate and so the Republican members was the minority report. And there were a couple of Eastern Senators, New York and New Jersey I think, Frelinghuysen and Goodell. Well, if you go back in the record and read the minority report on this in the House Labor Committee, on this subject, authored by Frelinghuysen and Goodell. They put their names on it, Jim Jones wrote it. In the Labor Department they don't know me from Adam [inaudible [03:36:45].
[03:36:44] Then when the administration changed and so forth under the Kennedypeople, and them people there and so forth, I wrote the majority report.
WEISBERGER: [03:36:55] You wrote the majority report.
JONES JR.:[03:36:58] That's how I actually first established my bonafides withmy long time boss, Charles Donahue, who had been in the Labor Department pre-Eisenhower and Solicitor's office [inaudible [03:37:12], got kicked out 'cause he was in a political slot, I guess, and he went to work for the plumbers [inaudible 03:37:19]. So when the Democrats came back he was Solicitor. And one of the first assignments under Charlie was this committee report and it was his stuff and we sat there across the table and got into a fight. I'm a brand new law clerk, but I guess it started my reputation. So you're the boss but now you're playing lawyer and I'm lawyering and you can deal with my lawyering but you can't bully me out of it. Something Charlie said, "I wrote this," so I said, "And I wrote that."
[03:37:55] Charlie was an interesting fella, as was his predecessor. Ultimately,we came to terms, and I wrote the revision, which he found satisfactory and away it went. Somebody goes, I would be an interesting witness if somebody was litigating me and trying ... what did they really mean when they wrote this statute and I'd say, "Which year?" Anyway, so that was the two and that was right in the middle of the secondary boycott stuff, so once you're in, you're in forever. I can't think of anything else in that era that excites you.
WEISBERGER: [03:38:34] So, you were still in the Labor Department when the Kennedy-
JONES JR.:[03:38:37] Oh, by the way, I quit.
WEISBERGER: [03:38:39] You quit?
JONES JR.:[03:38:40] I left the Labor Department once. I went to graduate schooland I got into labor to be the answer to the argument that Trade Union professionals were dumb and ill-prepared. And also, another one of my own personal things, they don't let black people do that. And so I went in to this, I looked at what unions were supposed to do, having grown up Christian and lost that, and said if churches were doing what they're supposed to do, they'd be doing some of this stuff. I could do that. So, I set out to get so qualified they'd have to hire me but they wouldn't. They wouldn't hire me either.
[03:39:25] So, I had a couple of people who knew I was interested in working forunions who were trying to get ... one of the guys, Ralph Bergman, was with the rebel workers and he was a deputy research director so he'd been associate professor of Illinois and whom I work [inaudible [03:39:42] and he got me in the loop for a research and education slot. I went all the way 'til he said the last two. They never interviewed me. Two people came, and they chose the other fellow who had a Ph.D. because they were scared of the lawyer. Ralph was-
WEISBERGER: [03:40:02] That's a familiar theme.
JONES JR.:[03:40:03] Right? And I said, here I am, this close. So anyway, hetold some of his research friends, Sarah Gamm and George Brooks, they were number one and two in the pulse of [inaudible [03:40:22] and paper mill workers [inaudible [03:40:23]. And they had an opening and they interviewed me and it was a love feast. It was wonderful. And, I'll make a long story short. About a month went by and I called them back and said, "I thought it was a great interview and we got along so well," and they said, "We did too." I said, "And?" They said, "Well, we think you're overqualified for this job." I said, "Aw, hell, not again." One you're scared of my credentials and now I'm overqualified. So I talked them out of that and I quit the solicitor's office and went to work for Sarah and George. And six months later I quit them and went back to the solicitor's office. They were right, I was overqualified ... for what they would let me do.
WEISBERGER: [03:41:05] For what they wanted. Oh, what they were gonna let-
JONES JR.:[03:41:12] Let me do. And they did a lot. They covered a lot of stuffthat they let me do. My own title was the Senior Professional. But George and them wasn't averse to doing a little law practice on the side so they got a real lawyer and I used to get stuff. But they were very unprofessional in my judgment 'cause they would give me stuff in the bottom line position with the file, I ain't even looked at the facts. Ideological. And more than once I went back to Sarah, who was the working supervisor and said, "I got three Supreme Court cases saying your position is dead wrong. We gonna put that local union out here on the limb and management will saw it off in the first meeting. And we'd have a discussion and she'd send me back to write the ... that irritated me. Idealistic, I guess.
[03:42:05] The other thing was that I was coming in on weekends-
WEISBERGER: [03:42:08]... of an interview with Jim Jones in 2004. Okay.
JONES JR.:[03:42:13] Sarah and George discovered I was coming in working onweekends and at night on company business, union business, and threatened to take my key away from me if I didn't stop. And the reason was, they couldn't pay me overtime, I wasn't asking for any overtime but it was against their ideology to have you work for free, you're supposed to be paid but if you pay excessive hours, it was overtime. And I said, "Look, these are arbitration matters and you mean I got to go out on the plant and interview the witness right with the foreman look at us for the case you're gonna hear?" I was going by workers' places at night and so, yeah. I didn't say that to them but I thought, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. You're not gonna get ... first you're targeting your people ... so that bothered me and ... the combination of stuff.
[03:43:12] I decided these people are really weird and I don't mind doing ... Iain't so proud that I won't do stuff work but there's a ceiling here that hell, I left a better job and certainly intellectually better. 'Cause even the Republican, my boss at least, wanted to know-
WEISBERGER: [03:43:35] What the other side ...?
JONES JR.:[03:43:37] Everything. Right? He wanted to know the whole thing andthen he would decide. And he'd debate whether or not his decision was what the hazards were and so forth, and he was very up top about it. I said, okay, this is the policy position right here, so now, once the decision was made, you got a different role, to put together the best you can for whatever it is. And, by the way, talking about Landrum-Griffin, I told them not to put that dumb Communist thing in the provision. Literally, I wrote a blistering memorandum that criticized the business of ... exclude the Communist and put 'em in jail and that, even if you gonna do some of the stuff that the ... corruption, it was a stupid way to do it. I didn't use those terms, at least I didn't write 'em in the discussion I might say ... You'll have crimes for which they would disqualify, don't specify the crime, specify the magnitude of whatever it is.
[03:44:39] On these two things, I lived long enough for the Justice Departmenthad to get that stuff after they passed that junk anyway. Somebody over there at Justice looked at it and said the Supreme Court will say, "Oh, oh, this is a loser. You better let Labor Department litigate it." Labor can write the brief. I turned down writing a brief in the Supreme Court of the United States on the Landrum-Griffin thing on the Communist exclusion provision. Somebody, whoever was my chief at the time, said, "You wanna write the Supreme Court brief on so-and-so?" I said, "Wait a minute." So I went and got my memo and I gave them a copy of my memo and said, "If the government is willing to confess error and convert this memo into a brief, I'll write it, otherwise, hell, no. I told you it was wrong, now the Supreme Court's gonna tell you." Nine to zip.
WEISBERGER: [03:45:41] Good crystal ball.
JONES JR.:[03:45:42] Well that was part of what we were supposed to be doingand, first of all, it was always a crap shoot. But the fellow who wrote the Supreme Court draft was a classmate of Shirley Abrahamson and a member of the Law Review with her, a black guy from Jonesboro, Arkansas who came to the Labor Department and went up the ladder and then went private. His name was Rufus McKinney. But Rufus wrote the brief. Rufus said, "I don't care what it is," he's a Law Review junkie, "A brief in the Supreme Court is a brownie point." He was right but he lost. Anyway so, where are we?
WEISBERGER: [03:46:26] So, you're back in the Labor Department.
JONES JR.:[03:46:28] I called up Edith, they didn't want me to go, anyway.
WEISBERGER: [03:46:31] I'm sure that's true.
JONES JR.:[03:46:32] I wasn't sure unless they told me. I took a pay cut to goto work for this union. Some part of it was kinda good 'cause we used to teach union functions, research and education, that part of it. And we taught people how to bargain over pension and it was a lot [crosstalk [03:46:58] some real interesting stuff. And we wrote a service thing, sort of a poor man's version of BNA for shop stewards and so forth, converted it into language that was much more manageable for people in the shop and all that was sort of, you know.
[03:47:17] One of the things that George and them kept talking about, theywanted to get to meddle in the segregated local stuff in their union and I kept thinking, these guys are crazy. They didn't get elected to do anything. They get out there and they gonna send me down south to get into the stuff. They gonna get fired and I would too. Not that that worried me that much about ... but that didn't seem to me to be a very smart way to be doing it. Now they weren't doing anything but talking about it. Let's see, this was pre-60's. Ultimately, they got caught meddling in politics and got fired and both of them ended up at Cornell in Trade Union Education. They got caught on the wrong side of the research and education politics. That ain't your business and I ...
[03:48:12] Anyway, so I called up Edith and said, "I'm gonna quit this job. Youguys are talking about me coming back. I'll come back if you want me back. Otherwise I'm thinking of packing my stuff and going out to California." I had some buddies out there from my undergraduate that had gone straight to law school and were practicing law. That wasn't what I had started out to do but Los Angeles was a better market and who knows, I might go out there and gen up some union side practice or whatever. But I was young, I was single, didn't have any debt, and so ...
[03:48:56] Oh, and I said, "And by the way, while I was gone, my class, thoseguys and gals that were the same level, had moved up past our promotion date. When I come back, since I been doing labor over here, I expect I'll come back right in the ladder just like I would've been if I'd stayed there." So she said, "I expect so, too." The following ... week I got called for a meeting that said, "Mr. Rothman said come on back and we'll slide you in."
WEISBERGER: [03:49:35] So there you were back in labor.
JONES JR.:[03:49:37] Back in labor. But I had my taste-
WEISBERGER: [03:49:39]With a little detour to the union-
JONES JR.:[03:49:41 I had my taste of the union side, which cured me of lookingfor union side stuff, if that's the way the game is played. I know how it's played on the government side, but at least my experience to date and how we did it in this office was a much more intellectually and ideologically respectable one than these people over here that were just ... and I don't know how far that went 'cause George and them are real ideologues and, you know, the principle. The principle my rear end, you gonna get those people out there crucified.
WEISBERGER: [03:50:17]Well I always admired George and Sarah when I met them butI was also very skeptical of some of their views. Like how great it was for unions not to have any union security provision so that would force all the union officials to get out there and persuade each member to voluntarily come up with their dues.
JONES JR.:[03:50:40] Completely idealistic and so forth, you say, "Which worldare you living in?" Right? Anyway, but I love them both. They were such ... I sorta suspected that they were more than just colleagues too but that wasn't my business. But they were such wonderful people. You admire these crazy guys. These purists.
WEISBERGER: [03:51:05] Right, rightWorking with them is a different story.
JONES JR.:[03:51:07] First of all, when I went back into the pits of labor andgot up to talk I used to tell my young 60's, I would say, "Look, I don't want no martyrs. Please, I want survivors so we can live and fight another battle, maybe ... these are battles. No individual one is the war. And I don't want no summertime soldiers. We gotta be here, so look, we have to ..."
WEISBERGER: [03:51:33] We all have to be here for the long run.
JONES JR.:[03:51:34] Right, so we have to maneuver around some things. We canpush but when it's ... if that's a suicidal thing, Derrick Bell was always calling for people to commit suicide. He never does. He seems to but he always ends up surviving. Wait a minute ... I'm getting ahead of the story because this is ...
WEISBERGER: [03:51:53] Okay, when you came back after the union experience, whatkind of assignments were you thrown into or did you take on?
JONES JR.:[03:52:01] I don't remember anything that was any great moment since... this was '58, '60 and the usual grist of the legislative mill, the waning days of the administration. They weren't breaking any new path. Landrum-Griffin was rocking. Probably that business of turning down writing the brief was during that period. I've forgotten when it was. There were some things like, and I'd have to look at the records, the big foreign flagship ... no, that might've been post '60.
[03:52:47] But maybe a Machinists v. Street. That's a Supreme Court case thatstarted the court down the wrong way. But I wrote the first memo on Machinists v. Street and so much work that Harold Isom thought they should've put my name on the brief. By the time the brief got back from the White House, I was delighted that my name wasn't on it. That's just plain crazy. It's not gonna ... you can't administer it. In fact, you're sliding down the edge and ultimately, they're still sliding down-
WEISBERGER: [03:53:22]They're still sliding.
JONES JR.:[03:53:26] You've given the court an impossible job, line y line byline, all of that business, and furthermore, to compare trade union people with corporations is the most idiotic comparison. A corporation is a paper person, association and trade union folks is like church. So to make them the same is a political ... and continues to keep unions weaker than they ought to be able to do. I was telling somebody the other day, he asked me which was the worst decision that the Supreme Court made. Most people would say the [inaudible [03:54:08] Minority, but it's gotta be simple. I said, "Well, I'm not so sure. I think that decision that said a corporation is a person, a U.S. citizen, and entitled to all the protections of the Constitution-
WEISBERGER: [03:54:19] Including free speech rights, etc.
JONES JR.:[03:54:22 Even though they saw the commercial speech as [inaudible[03:54:25]. But all the constitutional challenges contract rights, the Yellow Dog contract thing was constitutional. That's the worse things that's happened to our country, because it's destructive of democracy.
WEISBERGER: [03:54:40] And we're still seeing the [crosstalk [03:54:45]
JONES JR.:[03:54:44] And we're suffering the ultimate now since the presidenthas a notion that he's CEO of America and that America's a great big old corporation with a bottom line syndrome. What else?
WEISBERGER: [03:54:58] Well, I wanna figure out what you were doing from thetime that we just talked about to the time you came to the academic world.
JONES JR.:[03:55:11] Oh, God, that's a long reach [crosstalk [03:55:12]. But nowI'm talking about nine years, so let's take it a piece at a time. Change of administration. I could tell you a lot of things that happened in my personal life. Let's see, where are we?
WEISBERGER: [03:55:24] 1960.
JONES JR.:[03:55:25] Okay. I didn't get married. I got married May 6, 1960.That's probably most ... and on that side of it, you read some stuff and the memoir will tell you some of the agonies of the personal life of a hard-charging, hard-working and the few times I was free, hard-partying and hard-drinking bachelor and it got to be too complicated and I got caught standing still by this proud woman that I still don't understand, and we got married.
WEISBERGER: [03:56:10] So that was a highlight even though it's not on theprofessional side.
JONES JR.:[03:56:14] Well, it was. She was a professional. She was a computerprogrammer with the Army NAP that had the only online computer in the Federal Government with UNIVAC. One, bigger than this floor.
WEISBERGER: [03:56:31] Right, they had big, enormous rooms, I remember.
JONES JR.:[03:56:33] That's all. There was no other ... maybe they had one atthe NASA... but it was the only major computer. And they were doing Earth measurement. And she was a math major from a little black college and got a job. And she worked there until the space agency started and then NASA stole the lead mathematicians from Army NAP because they had two things: computer savvy and celestial mechanics.
WEISBERGER: [03:57:08] A nice combination.
JONES JR.:[03:57:11] That's right. Essential for NASA. So the water center atMaryland got started and they stole all of Joan's bosses. And then the bosses went back and stole some of the other people out there. So, we got married and she switched from Army NAP to NASA and so she was going out to Greenbelt when they had only two buildings, and the roads were still muddy and I was up to my eyebrows in the Labor Department, and the 60's came.
WEISBERGER: [03:57:48] What difference did the Kennedy administration make?
JONES JR.:[03:57:50] First of all, we went absolutely ballistic in the first 100days. The Labor Department was in the center of Camelot. The best and the brightest. You can't get any bestest than Arthur Goldberg for your Secretary of Labor. I believe the first Jew. His number two was W. Willard Wirtz. You have got to be kidding. I'm going to be the lawyer ... I'm the labor lawyer for these two ... one of the labor lawyers for these labor lawyers?
[03:58:24] Well, first off, let's see ... Moynihan [03:58:35] was aMiscellaneous Special Assistant to the Secretary of Labor. Ran around in the Labor Department looking for a job assignment, or something to do during this period. At one time we had four former Supreme Court clerks who were special assistant to the secretary. Whatever, they tucked them in, and they were busy meddling into the legal stuff. John Bell [03:59:08], who was a Prettyman [03:59:11] clerk, which was, if you want on the Supreme Court, E. Barrett Prettyman was the judge that people had to clerk for. The Solicitor's Office was a first-rate law office. Archibald Cox used to be Associate Solicitor Labor in the '40s. Cam Nickeljon [03:59:34]. Celebrated bunch of people that went through there and went to other places. It was a high quality outfit.
[03:59:50] The whole manpower, the War on Poverty, all sorts of stuff, thedynamics were going on. They were looking for ideas. We were up to here in stuff. I go at call from Edith to come to Edith's office, Edith Cook. I went up the ladder a little bit. I was [GS13 04:00:16] right now, first level supervisor, and a candidate for promotion to GS14. Mini-supervisor. Run projects and so forth by myself. Edith was ... I don't know whether she, by this time was ... (phone rings)
WEISBERGER: [04:00:41] You were called into Edith's office.
JONES JR.:[04:00:42] I was called into Edith's office, and she said, "What areyou working on, Jim." I said, "Secondary boycotts. The secretary's about to testify." She said, "When?" I told her. She said, "That's six weeks away. We're going crazy right now." She says a task force in Assistant Secretary Hollander's [04:01:00] office, he was a new assistant secretary ... we were still trying to figure out who was in what slots, by the way. We know Goldberg and Wirtz and Jim Reynolds [04:01:11] was a bullet. That was a new guy at the FMCS and all that stuff.
[04:01:19] I started out the door, and I said, "By the way, this is a one-manjob?" A little politically, incorrect, right. I said, "I'll take that new kid. He doesn't know anything yet." That new kid was John Bell. I picked up John Bell and we went down to Hollander's office. It was the new President's Committee apparatus for anti-discrimination and Affirmative Action. Kennedy's brand new Executive Order that used the magic words, and they got to have some rules and regulations drafted. This huge president's committee, but has the legislative part. The Secretary of Labor is on the committee as well as some other agencies because ... I can't think of the name of that bigoted Congressman that passed that law that first killed the Roosevelt Initiative, but then some of the people went to him and say, the defense people ... this was pre-Defense Department, you see. We had Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force. They said, "Your prohibition doesn't allow us to participate in things that we share in common with our monies, without getting specific approval for an act of Congress." He said, "Oh, you didn't need that."
[04:02:50] The next Congress he put in the thing that really trashed theoriginal one he said that you couldn't have a program for more than one year that spends the government's money without specific authorization from Congress, right? That precedent ran from Roosevelt to the point that whenever they started this big outfit, committee, it's a little bit of preachers, and teachers and some union folk and management people. Couldn't do that anymore, unless you had inter-agency. So you have them do a little preachers and teachers and union and management people and Labor Department and Defense Department and another agency. Away you go, business as usual, right? The Labor Department end up, usually, having to do the staffing for it, whatever they could get from other ... it's the same old business, man.
[04:03:50] He gets 25 people on that, including George Higgins [04:03:52], bythe way, he was on that committee. They had to do the rules. Administration was delegated to the Secretary of Labor, but rule writing was the committee. They hadn't been assembled yet, but it comes time to get started. I didn't know anything, not absolutely nothing about the substance, but I knew how to do rules and get them ready. John Bell was a very good and careful lawyer, good contract writer, we had good ... he was a very good guy to work with.
[04:04:39] So,we went down there and got the specs. What it was the rules andregulations for the Kennedy Executive Order that, for the first time in the history of presidential executive orders on anti-discrimination in government contractors, also imposed the Affirmative Action Laws [inaudible 04:04:54]. No definition. No definition of anything. That was who made it, and this was forced march. Everything is, got to have it by tomorrow.
[04:05:07] Anyway, we wrote some rules and regulations, and when we wrote themup, we've given instructions about to whom they should be sent for comments. The usual, Justice Department, obviously, and amongst these people was Abe Fortas [04:05:25] and I said to Edith, "What agency is he with?" She said, "Nothing, yet. He's still over in the law office." Reedy [04:05:36], I've forgotten Reedy's first name, he was press secretary.
WEISBERGER: [04:05:39] Was it George Reedy?
JONES JR.:[04:05:39] George Reedy. There were a bunch of, a whole bundle ofnames. Oh yeah, write that down and just ... it ain't for us to judge who these people are and where. Just send this stuff out.
[04:05:54] I cobble all that together and we put together some rules. The firstthing, I was looking at John and I said, "I've got some problems that I can't make up stuff to sort out. First of all, what the hell do they mean by 'contract?'" Nobody had ever talked about contract law. I don't know, since they had never made any real noise about enforcing the damn thing in the 20 years they had had it around since Roosevelt, but one special thing that the Kennedy Executive Order had in it was not only Affirmative Action, but it had specific provisions for enforcement, including debarment, blacklisting was the ultimate, cancellation and revocation of contracts. I've forgotten what else.
WEISBERGER: [04:06:50] Well that's pretty strong.
JONES JR.:[04:06:51] Very strong. Right out of defense contracting [inaudible04:06:58]. In addition to indicate... that I've said ...to indicate that they weren't being frivolous, they had provisions in there to protect the contractors' due process rights. You couldn't just impose sanctions on them without hearing, etc. All right, all of this was new, so I'm looking at this stuff and then I'm thinking, "Wait a minute. Everybody talks about contract, we've got all this stuff in federally assisted contracts and all this give away. They're grants. Is a grant a contract?"
WEISBERGER: [04:07:32] The definitions were non-trivial. To figure it out.
JONES JR.:[04:07:38] Right, but there were no definitions. Now, I looked at theAffirmative Action thing, we looked at, I'm the lead lawyer and John is still trying to find where the men's rooms are, but he was a very good lawyer, classic in a sense. They've already said no discrimination on the basis of ... by the way, specifically missing was sex. Wasn't no gender stuff in there.
[04:08:19] That's old-fashioned, intentional discrimination, with maliceaforethought, or malum in se or whatever you want to call it. Therefore, this other stuff has got to be different. I learned from Sam Berman [04:08:34] and John Conway]04:08:34], right, and lawyers going, you're going to change what you're saying, you've changed the meaning. You want to mean the same thing, say the same thing. With something sitting out like that, they obviously intended-
WEISBERGER: [04:08:46] Something more.
JONES JR.:[04:08:47] Something more than this right here. I said, "Okay,executive orders are usually drafted in the Justice Department, or at least Justice ought to know who drafted it. Since we're going to send this stuff over to Justice, maybe I'll save myself a bunch of time by making an appointment over at the Assistant Attorney General's Office for Legal Counsel with their chief people to get an idea what they had in mind." So I made an appointment, and the Assistant AG for Legal Counsel was the famous Nicholas deBelleville Katzenbach [04:09:28].
WEISBERGER: [04:09:28] Oh, I got it. Yeah.
JONES JR.:[04:09:30] I went over and met with the great Nick and his number oneguy, the Korea guy whose name I've forgotten, was chief of that operation. We sat and talked. My primary thing, I'd get to Affirmative Action later, but what did you guys have in mind when you said "contract?" Because we're in the business of all this highway aid money, and you're giving it to the states to then contract with it.
WEISBERGER: [04:10:03] Is it going to follow that?
JONES JR.:[04:10:05] What is this? Is this is a contract, first, right? Thefollow part I didn't have any difficult with, because the most comprehensive subcontract language had been litigated in Walsh-Healey in the '30s and '40s. I knew where I was going to get that from with Supreme Court citations to say what the language meant. By the way that's one thing I learned about the legislation. When I wrote a committee report, I didn't always put it all in there, but for terminology and stuff, usually if there was someplace else it had been litigated and the language had a meaning, I would have all that briefing back-up stuff for if we need them in court. Maybe the Supreme Court wants to change it's mind about what this language means, but that's what ya'll said it-
WEISBERGER: [04:10:53] But you'll have to deal with what they said.
JONES JR.:[04:10:55] That's what you said it meant, and even if Congress changedthat statute, that was if that language was in there, this is the classic definition of that term. That's the way I used to research and document that stuff, when we had something. When you haven't got anything, you say, "Where do you get this stuff?"
[04:11:14] Anyway, Nick and them chatted with me nicely and turned me over to asenior person to take me down to the library and show them the wonderful resources of the Justice Department's law library. The best in the world. I didn't have the heart to tell them, "Fellas, I've been using this library for five years. Where do you think we go when our library doesn't have enough?" We went down there and I went back to the office and I said, "We're all on our own." I didn't raise the question, just used sorta standard language. I went out there and preserved the Affirmative Action mandate without trying to articulate what, in detail, we had in mind.
[04:12:07] Now, coming from the labor management world, I knew what AffirmativeAction in the National Relations Act model gave to the board. If they ever want to expand, but somebody's got to see, because we can go almost wherever you want to go, if it effectuates the purposes of the statute. We'll leave that later. We can't handle overt discrimination, obviously not ready to address that in detail in this short period of time.
[04:12:47] We put together some stuff, sent it out for comment, got backpreliminary comments, and to whatever extent they gave us anything, we did them. Draft number two. Sent it out to the people who got to pass this stuff. That's 25 or so. Still didn't have a definition section in the rules. I said, "Worry about that a little later."
[04:13:24] Sunday morning, I'm back now working on secondary boycotts-
WEISBERGER: [04:13:27]This is tape number two, an interview between JuneWeisberger and Professor James Jones.
JONES JR.:[04:13:33] Alright, we were talking about this magic Sunday in thefirst 100 days of the Kennedy Administration, after we'd sent out to various and sundry, two drafts of rules and regulations, and Abe Fortas, who was still-
WEISBERGER: [04:13:49] In private practice.
JONES JR.:[04:13:51] In private practice called my boss, my supervisor, EdithCook [04:14:00], and she got me on the phone to talk to me [inaudible 04:14:08] attorney. He complimented us on our efforts and that. "I assume you are now working on the second ..."
WEISBERGER: [04:14:19] Draft?
JONES JR.:[04:14:20] "Draft." I said, "Yes." He was complimentary, he said,"I've some small suggestions." He gave me eight small, he said small, suggestions. When I thanked him and hung up and studied them, I said, "Small, my right eye."
WEISBERGER: [04:14:39] (laughs)
JONES JR.:[04:14:42] First of all, they were the only real, substantivesuggestions we got. Justice sent us back some ticky tacky crap about the form to put it in before we submit it to the federal register for whatever we were going to go with that. I'd already sent the word up the line through the system to the Secretary of Labor saying, "We got these rules. They are our rules governing government contracts. There's an exception in the Administrative Procedure Act for rules and contracts. We don't have to go through the process. Do you want to go through the proper ... notice and comment, etc.?" Had I been asked, I would have put them through that. Since this ... obviously this was the business of ... you can't have a kid like John Bell in charge of something. You've got to know some nuances of things that you learn by being around long enough or just be cautious.
[04:15:43] I would put them through there, but I think that things ought to bedone up front. Furthermore, you get some stuff that is very useful since, contrary to the current government, we don't know everything. The word came back from Goldberg, "Of course we're going to post it for notice." We got by that hurdle.
JONES JR.:[04:16:05] Here I get aid, and all of these of substance. The rest ofthe stuff was-
WEISBERGER: [04:16:12] Trivial.
JONES JR.:[04:16:12] Right. Then I'm kind of thinking, "We already got all thisstuff out to these people who have the authority, how am I going to deal with these changes?" I had my first brilliant idea. Think I'm going to go run a meeting pretty much like a body would run a meeting. I said I will suggest ... by the way they had a lead counsel called Hobart Taylor [04:16:43] who was going to come in and was closing down a 12-man law office in Detroit. Only inclination that I ever had that there was a black law firm in the United States, and he was going to close it out to come to Washington to be Assistant to the Vice President and Counselor to the President's Committee at EEO. I never met the man. He ain't there and I'm doing his work. I would think ... but anyway, I got this brilliant idea. I will set it up so what they do is, there's a motion to put the rules before the committee, and there's a series of motions to amend the proposed rules one through eight, which meant that in every place in the original draft that this amendment, of course the change would be approved.
[04:17:42] Then I had my real stroke of genius. The ninth proposal, the bodywith the authority would give to the Secretary of Labor and/or the General Counsel, and the General Counselor, a gift [inaudible 04:17:58] to that lawyer, Reviser of Statutes authority. If you know anything ...
WEISBERGER: [04:18:04] Yeah, I know about the reviser Wisconsin statutes.
JONES JR.:[04:18:08] But there's a reviser standard at the federal governmentthat there's something that goes so they put all that stuff in the code book, etc. Somebody has to fit it where they've changed and make it make sense. The legislative history will tell you a lot of stuff about it.
[04:18:26] This is a little bit slippery, I guess, but you know, these laypeople, etc., so the counsel could say, "We need this to fix the thing so that the clean copy and all that, plus we need to add the consistent definitions that make sense [inaudible 04:18:42]." They passed all eight ... they passed all nine, and essentially gave to the lawyer the Reviser of Statute, including writing definitions. Then when I talked to stuff, I'd tell an administrator or I'd tell the students, "I'll let you write the statute, if you let me write the definitions, and I assure you that when I am finished, it will mean what I say it means." Since there was no reason for them to doubt that we were playing games, and they passed it. We crafted definitions after this.
WEISBERGER: [04:19:20] That's very interesting, because the logical thing is tosay how important it is to do these definitions first.
JONES JR.:[04:19:27] Of course, but you see, can you imagine a bunch of laypeople who don't know a damn thing about it, and also don't know this business about the contract thing. We just, the contract was a compliment, the subcontract thing, I knew I had that wired. We finessed the contract thing and just didn't answer the question.
[04:19:50] Anyway, they passed the whole thing, and out it went and got thatmoving. I think the second ... there were two sets of rules. There was some clean up stuff after Hobart came.
[04:20:04] Okay, so that got out there and in the ... what it amounted to was Ibecame an instant expert in civil rights. That was my very first assignment as a professional in the Labor Department.
WEISBERGER: [04:20:23] You were in the thick of things with that assignment.
JONES JR.:[04:20:25] And it had anything to do with race. Nobody knew how muchin the thick it was. This is the president and then he's almost 20 years to the day, come up with the same kind of ... an approach that Roosevelt started under pressure from the North.
[04:20:46] Now, we posted these things for 60 days note of comment, so the worldat large that follows this stuff, had advance notice.
WEISBERGER: [04:20:53]Were there many reactions?
JONES JR.:[04:20:56] Garbage.
WEISBERGER: [04:20:58]I'm not surprised.
JONES JR.:[04:20:59] Most of it, just lauditory [inaudible 04:21:01], nothing of ...
WEISBERGER: [04:21:02] Substance.
JONES JR.:[04:21:02] One of the things that always troubled me later, sincewe're learning ... we put together, and John was very good at discuss ... some of this is civil procedure type stuff, administrative process. We put together a complaint-based process for enforcement. Knowing what I know now, I would have raised with somebody, said, "Hey, look do you really want an individual complaint-based process so that individual complaints will trigger an enforcement action against General Motors. The bottom line on this one, stop doing contract with the whole corporation? You don't have a provision in here for breaking it up?" Or as John McEnroe say, "You can't be serious?"
[04:21:58] I wasn't sufficiently aware at the time, and we were in a hurry, sowho's going to complain about the process of filing a complaint and investigation and the government prosecutor and take it on up there and impose such sanction as the body. Well, the body was [inaudible 04:22:14] and it had mediation, arbitration [inaudible 04:22:18] for a panel of experts built in the arbitration, this sort of arbitration alternative dispute. Didn't have that name then, but the idea behind it.
WEISBERGER: [04:22:26]That's what it was.
JONES JR.:[04:22:26] Then ultimately go to the committee for ultimate disposition.
[04:22:36] We had all that in there and none of the ... the civil rightsorganizations didn't scream, etc. Then when they got around to the business of, much later, trying to enforce these things from outside, they were tied into the administrative process. Once I got out here and became a scholar and got looking at stuff, I said, "I knew we could've done a better job. What's new?"
[04:23:02] What happened a year later, or somewhat later, I think it was a yearlater, they realized that actually asked the questions I had raised about, "What do you mean by contract?" That language didn't really carry it by itself, so they issued another executive order to clarify the first one, which took care of all the federally assisted contractors and the whole thing.
[04:23:32] Now, let's see. What happened after that that was of great note?
WEISBERGER: [04:23:34] Well, it was an exciting time, I'm sure to be inWashington, to be a lawyer, to be in the Labor Department.
JONES JR.:[04:23:39] Let me tell you, I was right down there in the middle ofright at 14th and Constitution Avenue. The real excitement is to come later. In '63, the March on Washington, I was at work.
[04:23:53] Before we get to that point, Adam Powell]04:23:56] had been finally... because Graham Barton]04:24:00] died or didn't run, etc. Adam had been the ranking Democrat on the House Labor Committee for years and the chairman wouldn't even acknowledge his presence. Powell became Chair. He immediately started activity to get an FEPC bill considered. He introduced one. James Rose-, in the House, bunch of people introduced the same bill over their name. In the Senate you have people, a number of people, sponsor the same bill. In the House there was Roosevelt's bill and Adam's bill, which was the same. Adam is chair, he schedules hearing on Roosevelt's bill and invites the Secretary of Labor to come and testify. Jack Kennedy didn't know anybody [inaudible 04:25:02]
WEISBERGER: [04:25:03] Testify?
JONES JR.:[04:25:04] Mucking around with no FEPC stuff. If they're going to havea civil rights bill, that was not one ... that issue ... he wasn't interested in opening up that issue because it was going to be a keg of maggots for the trade union support, plus all sorts of other things. That wasn't on the table. I forgot the sequence, but you're talking about things that are most important, rivaling getting married, dictated how much time ... she was going out to NASA because they were getting ready to launch stuff. I'm downtown because they were launching all sorts of stuff and I'm in the middle of it.
JONES JR.:[04:25:42] Anyway, so Roosevelt ... I mean ...
WEISBERGER: [04:25:46] Kennedy?
JONES JR.:[04:25:46] Goldberg dodged the ...
JONES JR.:[04:25:52] He was not available. Adam finally got ticked and he sentthe word down to the Labor Department. "The Secretary will appear tomorrow at 10 a.m. to testify on HR whatever [inaudible 04:26:10]" The Secretary was out of town. One of the many supervisors came down to ... many, small ... came down to my office and said, "Jim-"
WEISBERGER: [04:26:24] "We have a problem."
JONES JR.: [04:26:25] "The Secretary has got to testify on the FEPC tomorrow at10:00 in the House Labor Committee. You've got to write testimony [inaudible 04:26:32]." I was eating my lunch, which in those days was soup, salad, dessert and tea. Breakfast was a cup of coffee, orange juice, a cup of coffee and a cigarette. I'm having lunch. I said, "Okay." I was finishing my soup. Phil Jahne was his name, he had grown up ... he'd been a Secretary and he had grown up on the [inaudible 04:26:58] went to college, went to law school and became a lawyer all at the Labor Department. A nice kid from Pennsylvania. He was drained of color, at a loss. He said, "Did you hear what I said." I looked up and said, "Yeah. I have 22 minutes to get ready and it ain't going to get any longer if I don't finish my soup." I'm not that cavalier, but I've got to have some fuel in me. I can think while I'm eating.
JONES JR.: [04:27:33] Boy, he was really mad, probably, I don't know what hethought. He thought I had more courage than he had. He was dying. He'd never been up to the Hill, so here I'm going to go up with the Secretary lawyer. I wrote some testimony. Put together whatever we could and it didn't say anything much, but since we couldn't get a clear view of the budget because the administrator didn't have any position. They wasn't going to wade out in that water. What Goldberg did was to go up there and talk sort of sympathetically about the problems and the needs, etc. and offer the assistance of the Labor Department in drafting a supportable bill.
[04:28:19] I put together this stuff and we put a little hand briefing book outand got to the Secretary's chauffer and said, " When you pick him up from the airport and midnight, you're going to put this in the limousine so you sit on it and you won't forget, when he steps off the plane, give it to him. He's got a 10:00."
[04:28:46] Anyway, the next-
WEISBERGER: [04:28:47] That's what happened.
JONES JR.: [04:28:47] That's what happened. The next morning I met him, I guessabout 9:00 or whatever, we had a little round table briefing and I'm up the Hill in the Secretary's limo. Arthur Goldberg, I believe the first, if not the only Jew to be Secretary of Labor, is testifying before the House Labor Committee, chaired by a black Congressman from New York on a bill introduced in Congress by the son of the former president, Franklin Roosevelt, and the Secretary of Labor has a black lawyer to reckon, who I believe, I might have been a 14 by then, but if so, just barely because there's another story about when I got promoted to GS14. It was the first time in the history of the Labor Department that a black lawyer had been promoted to Principle Attorney. Not even Howard Jenkins, who had been a political appointee.
[04:29:50] I didn't know that until after I came out here to teach. I knew thatthere had been a black lawyer in the Labor Department in the '40s, named George W. Crockett. He left the Labor Department, went back to Detroit, I think he became a judge. He became a Congressman. I think he took Diggs' seat, but I don't know whether he was a judge first and a Congressman later. The black law students had Judge Crockett out here for something, and he came up to visit with me. I knew who he was. I told him about our common background, and that I had been ... I knew he had been in the Labor Department, and he left. He told me the story of why he left.
[04:30:35] He was a GS13 hot shot and one of his liberal, white friends said,"George, you're too good to retire in the government at a 13, but they're never going to promote a Negro to Principle Attorney. You ought to get the hell out of here and pursue a career with your talents someplace else." He said that's why he left. Then it hit me. It took a year to get my paperwork through, and Edith was my ... I mean, this lovely gal was my supervisor, and so she was the one that was signing, steering this stuff through the process, and it kept coming back. I don't know whether it was during this explosive period or later, but we were in her office working on something ... the reason that I can't edit very well ... I never did. I did the real work and Edith was the best editor and rearranging, communication ... she said, "That's repetitious." "I know it is, but you got to maintain the attention of these people and by the time they get to the fourth page, they've forgotten what was on there, so you just carry them right along to the end." She was marvelous.
[04:31:59] Anyway, we were doing about something and she picked this stuff up,the mess and they put it back.
[04:32:00] Something, and she picked the stuff up, but eventually put it back.And, she teared up, she was furious. She picked it up and charged out and went somewhere. So, I knew what it was, 'cause it had been back and some of the stuff I had changed and put some more in. But, she snatched this up and she went into [inaudible 04:32:25].
[04:32:24] I always fretted about, you know, "Why the hell is it taking solong?" None of those other pieces of paper have taken long to get through. Now, there weren't that many 14's of any kind. Once you get to be a 14, you've got a title, okay? But, I wasn't, by this time she's obviously a 15, I think. She might have been the associate solicitor, assistant solicitor. It took ... and I said, "Those son of a bitches." 20 years later, it's 20 years or more since Crocker left the department.
WEISBERGER: [04:32:57] Crocker.
JONES JR.: [04:32:57] They still ...
WEISBERGER: [04:32:58] They still ...
JONES JR.: [04:33:00] I also found out something later, that a lot of this fellin place. I was reading some stuff from a confidential... bunch of junk that I had to go through a special security to get that rod out there and that lock to open in that office that I took over when I got to be a 16. Top secret and all that stuff I read, and most of it was absolute junk. Clippings from newspapers, there weren't nothing that I didn't already know in there, and some things I found out... the missile site crisis that I wished I didn't know. It was at that meeting that somebody asked me, "Do you have..." somebody... security people there, "I assume everybody has crypto-sensitive clearance." And I said, "I don't." It was too late. They already told us. They already told me some stuff I really didn't want to know. Well obviously I wasn't going to share it with anybody, but it really was hair raising. Went through this stuff and found out there was a confidential memo. It was political. It didn't have anything to do with security. The famous Anne Thompson Powers, who was Bill Wirtz's exec, had done an investigation of affirmative action at the labor department. How minorities had applied and he had this report. He said, "The highest level of negro..." I hate to use that garbage term, you know what I mean. "...that we have in a professional job, who is not in a political department is Jim Johnson of the solicitor's office. GS14."
[04:34:35] There was one or two who had political jobs. Sylvester being one andArthur Chape and some other guy who's name I never really... he had. There were three of them that were at least in the super grade 15, 16, 17 I think. Tom had some comments to say about the process and obviously there was talent around here who could ascend to these other positions, but we around preaching other people to advance, etc.
WEISBERGER: [04:35:19] Our own backyard.
JONES JR.: [04:35:20] By the way it's really tragic and I'm upset to say, we hadthe best profile of any agency in the country.
WEISBERGER: [04:35:27] Ooh that hurts.
JONES JR.: [04:35:30] Well for those of us...
WEISBERGER: [04:35:31] You're not surprised?
JONES JR.: [04:35:32] Nothing surprises me anyway. After all I came toWashington it was a Jim Crow town.
[04:35:40] Anyway, found that out many years later. Took that long to breakthrough. Every move I made after that, wasn't but two more, 15 and 16. When I topped out as a GS16, I was Chief of the Legal Division and I had already been a 16 by the way. Chief of the Research Corporation and Labor Relations. That's as far as a black had ever gone.
[04:36:07] By the way, when I left... getting ahead of the story, but LarrySilverman told me, "You have to teach us or we're going to have to quit." Because he would give me his absence. He needed to bring in a political, someone with political coverage for my job. I was sitting on a hand grenade. I was sitting on all his hand grenades. The rest of these guys fixing to run themselves.
[04:36:37] To accommodate what he was bringing in they upgraded the job. Theymade it a GS17 after I left. Ultimately when they put it back in the structure they cut it in two and made two 17s.
WEISBERGER: [04:36:51] So a two 17 job is a 16?
JONES JR.: [04:36:56] Right. Labor relations has it's group from the publicsector stuff and that's a story too. Who we haven't gotten to back up there.
[04:37:08] I don't remember the exact timing of the writing of the KennedyExecutive Order. We wrote that. Me and John. Took all of the support stuff, the structure. By that time, I'm a 15 at least. I'm council for labor relations in the Division of Labor Relations. That's after the Kennedy Administration. I don't know when I got the 14. I could look it up. Before they came in or I got it right after they came in. Then ultimately I got to be a 15 and then ultimately a 16.
WEISBERGER: [04:37:48] Maybe this is a good point to stop today. We're going topick up next week at this point.
JONES JR.: [04:37:54] Let me back up and cap off the...
WEISBERGER: [04:37:55] Alright. Go ahead.
JONES JR.: [04:37:58] I went up and Goldberg testified and he finessed and thenguess who they sent up as the "Department of Labor's Assistance in drafting a bill"? Me.
[04:38:09] I thought they were going to send up Hobart Taylor the VicePresident's... Hobart wouldn't touch it. He says obviously the administration has changed. So I go back up there and I send three weeks in executive session while they mark up this bill. In a sweat we didn't have a position on anything.
WEISBERGER: [04:38:30] Oh my.
JONES JR.: [04:38:32] Adam knew it and a couple of times he called on me to respond.
WEISBERGER: [04:38:37] Right.
JONES JR.: [04:38:38] That's when I learned how to talk without saying anything.We we're fast tracked revising a statute. Me and couple of other real lawyers and a klutz from the minority side who didn't know means. After it was all over Roosevelt sent Goldberg a glowing letter thanking him for the assistance provided by James Jones. I have a copy of this somewhere.
WEISBERGER: [04:39:11] Oh neat.
JONES JR.: [04:39:14] Isn't that neat? I don't have the original, if I had thatoriginal maybe... some of these funny programs would think it's important. Beyond that actually I discovered an original letter signed by Jack Kennedy, that broke entire party orders in the Justice Department, and it said it was I was a real guy.
WEISBERGER: [04:39:38] Good for you.
JONES JR.: [04:39:39] I made a copy of it and kept that damn thing because itwould probably be worth something. Send it back... but anyway I got that nice glowing letter, a copy of it, from Goldberg. As well as when Goldberg went to the bench, I got a personal from the bench thanking me and I think that is...
WEISBERGER: [04:39:59] That is something very special.
JONES JR.: [04:40:16] We have to stop there 'cause we now have just sorta.
TURNER: [04:40:21] This concludes the fourth interview of the oral history. Thefifth interview conducted on October 11th, 2004 begins now.
WEISBERGER: [04:40:29]...11th, Monday 2004 and I'm in professor James Jones'office. We're going to be take number five in the oral history project that we've been working on and Professor Jones, my recollection was that we left off during your Department of Labor years just when Arthur Goldberg went off to the Supreme Court as a justice and Willard Wirtz came in.
JONES JR.: [04:40:59] That would be a good time marker I guess because Goldbergwas Secretary of Labor for 20 months. Bill Wirtz was under Secretary of Labor and when Goldberg went to the Supreme Court he also stole my boss's secretary. The Solicitor of Labor's secretary, chief secretary. Took her to court with him. Then Bill went up to be secretary and James J. Reynolds became under secretary, so that would mark you figure '63. That must have been '65. Somewhere right around then.
WEISBERGER: [04:41:44] Okay. What sort of things happened to you during theperiod that followed?
JONES JR.: [04:41:49] Does that say '65? What does that say?
WEISBERGER: [04:41:51] Oh, you're going to ask me to see something I can't see?
JONES JR.: [04:41:55] Maybe I have the numbers screwed up. '63... no it wouldhave been '64. Well this right here is March 4th, 1963. This that I'm pointing to is the Secretary of Labor's Career Service Award. That's been given to me by Bill Wirtz. This certificate. What it does is entitles me to a year off with full salary and whatever expenses to do... a year and a proposal that I had made was to do research on national emergency disputes. Another Taft-Hartley. Since I had been in the hot seat for several years going back to the previous administration. When they have another Taft-Hartley, or for that matter even later on when the Labor Act proceeds for dealing with an economic strike were exhausted, the next move was up to the President. If it works out in the process or you go to Congress to get a bill to fix that particular dispute. They assembled all these experts and legislations was involved and solicitors office would be the labor relations worker bee, with the background. So I was always detailed to whatever that was.
[04:43:35] You know how it works. The chieftains make all the big decisions andthey leave a bunch of specifications and then they go out and have cocktails and dinner and the worker bee is left there till three o'clock in the morning to figure out how am I going to get from here to there? They didn't give me any advice. Try to put something together and as time passed I realized that all these so called experts were about as expert as I was because when the crisis would hit and the telephone would network would be working, some of these experts would be calling me. I said, "They're calling me?" I concluded that...
WEISBERGER: [04:44:19] That you had to be one of the experts.
JONES JR.: [04:44:19] ... that no body really knew enough and it was justirresponsible. That's my term because there's so many things that I discovered that the government lacked expectations were irresponsible for saying no to everything. If it didn't create a crisis, don't even bother with it. So the expectations that we grew up with about this all knowing, all right government. The world doesn't fit that model at all and I eventually got less uncomfortable with being the person in the hot seat. Which certainly served me well as I went up the line. So in fact, I was the last technical in the whole call on something, right? And I didn't know anything. As we've learned since we've become "scholars" the more you know the more you realize how little you know, right?
WEISBERGER: [04:45:25] True.
JONES JR.: [04:45:28] That's March 4th, '63 and Bill Wirtz is Secretary of Laborso Goldberg must have moved up earlier than that. I don't know... the timeframe is good enough.
WEISBERGER: [04:45:39] Right.
JONES JR.: [04:45:41] So what did we talk about? I think I pointed out that onGoldberg's watch I had appeared as loyal record and this very peculiar setup where the chair of the committee is a black Congressman and the bill we're on is the former President Roosevelt's son. I believe the first Jewish Secretary of Labor is testifying that he's got a black lawyer. That was in '62 I think. Somewhere in there. If you really wanted to be precise on this I got stuff on it I could probably dig up.
WEISBERGER: [04:46:23] Right. I thought that one easy thing that I could do iswhen I hand the tapes over to the university archives I could have your most current entry in the AALS book that has... pin points a number of these.
JONES JR.: [04:46:38] Which may or may not know everything.
WEISBERGER: [04:46:41] Right.
JONES JR.: [04:46:42] Since this is an oral history and the nature of thememoirs, if they want documentation I have to go deep into my records. I got copies somewhere of the testimony. If they're not worried about that then we can just do what we remember in sequence reasonably close.
WEISBERGER: [04:47:05] Just to follow one thing you said just a bit earlier, didyou take a sabbatical because of the career service award? And what was your time spent on national emergencies?
JONES JR.: [04:47:19] Yes, but it got delayed because when I was supposed togo... by the time I was supposed to go and take my time off, we were in the middle of the run up to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Labor Department was up to their eyebrows in it. Bill Wirtz was the second witness before the House Judiciary Committee, which wasn't the Labor Department's usual turf. The first witness was Bobby Kennedy, so we can at least set that in [inaudible 04:47:58] because Bobby was Attorney General. Jack had not been killed yet.
WEISBERGER: [04:48:02] Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
JONES JR.: [04:48:03] He was in the White House.
WEISBERGER: [04:48:04] Okay, so it's pre-November '63.
JONES JR.: [04:48:06] Right. Since Bill was a critical player in that and we hadcompulsory abirritation in the railroads pending. He was the critical player in that and I was his lawyer in both of them. Obviously, he couldn't let me go to go play research.
WEISBERGER: [04:48:32] To study.
JONES JR.: [04:48:37] Right. My time would start when I went, not when thisthing was sent. This was the honors program where they have the little merit badges and this thing is given to me. As I jokingly said to him once and he corrected my grammar... I was spending more time with Bill than with Jane. We were in our labor arguments and said, "I didn't know you were spending any time with Jane." He was such a card.
[04:49:19] There were some changes. Bill became Secretary of Labor. Jim Reynoldsbecame under secretary. He took his top staff guy who was also a labor management relations guy, a lawyer too. Both of them became under secretary himself. Jack Gentry. They had to go on the outside and get somebody else to be the assistant secretary for labor management which is what [inaudible 04:49:54]. Tom Donahue who ultimately became President of the AFL Seattle, who came out of ASCIU, and the current AFL Seattle president was mentored by Tom Donahue. Tom Donahue became available, okay? Lot of things in the mix right here and how we can fix them. It's hard to put them all in clear steps because they collapse on each other. Lot of things can happen in a short period of time.
[04:50:34] Shortly before this or maybe about the same time. During the sameperiod of time. John Kennedy appointed the first black to the National Labor Relations Board. Howard Jenkins Jr. who was a Department of Labor lawyer when they came... he was a professor of labor lawyer at Howard and came into the Eisenhower administration in the solicitor's office. At a GS level that was insulting to his ability, but that's... because...
WEISBERGER: [04:51:17] That's the unfortunate history.
JONES JR.: [04:51:17] A GS13 and anyway Howard when I joined the solicitor'soffice, Howard was in the legislation division. He was beginning nationally. Not only he had a track record as an academic and as a professional, he had political connections it turns out that when Goldwater was running for President, Goldwater's wife and Howard's wife were touring the country pouring tea together and campaigning. He tapped Kennedy up on at Howard to the NLRB. Really sorta a typical political move. While the statute doesn't said that as a matter of practice the NLRB is always bi-partisan. We have republicans and democrats. Howard's vacancy was a republican vacancy. Jack Kennedy put a black in it. They wouldn't dare go at him with great credentials. The opposition wouldn't dare try and he stayed for a long time.
[04:52:29] How this fits in the story I'm telling, NLRB, the National LaborRelations all started was part of my beat not Howard's. For the national and some other stuff Howard was in. Then he went on to Landrum-Griffin thing for the commission, but when the secretary had do something about the Taft-Hartley law. The three people in the legal office was Edith N. Cook, who was Walter Cook's daughter, and William Evans, and me. I was their first choice for the worker bee because of the background I brought with me in industrial relations. The more experience and the more stuff I got and when we went to Capitol Hill I think I was Goldberg's lawyer. Under Congress on the second day of boycotts and stuff like that.
[04:53:29] When Howard came back from the White House finding out he was goingto be nominated by the President he made two telephone calls. He called his wife to tell her and he called me and asked if I'd come to talk to him. The talk was he told me he was going to be nominated by the President and if he was confirmed would I go with him as his chief legal. Now the significance of this is two fold. One, this is a historic move. In the history of the board it's only had two blacks [crosstalk 04:54:08]. Your generation, I'm older than Liz. Well if the legal relations emergency of black folks and Bill became chair. He's the only chair now. Howard stayed for, I don't know, 20 years. Since I had been interviewed by the NLRB, and I had when I first started out, if I was going to work for government that was the agency and they wouldn't hire me. So here I get an offer to go to the top of the structures since the chief legal for each board member is a GS16, his supervisor is 25.
[04:54:55] Well I guess I skipped a part, when Rothman was secretary. StuartRothman was solicitor, he ultimately left the solicitor's office and went to the NLRB as general counsel. After he was over there about six months, he sent for me, except he didn't. He took Bill Evans with him and Bill called and said Stuarts wants you to come over and be a supervisor in one of these divisions. I would have been delighted for any kinda job over there when I started, but by the time that Rothman went over there with Rothman's curious reputation. I turned that down for something. I'm going to over there with... these people administered this one law all the time. I'm going to go over to supervise them? They going to hate me more than they hate Rothman. That's just going to be just [inaudible 04:55:53] trying to manage that. Who needs that? For one great promotion? I'm in the labor department, I guess by this time I'm a GS13. I said 14 ain't worth that. Well somebody would argue that because there aint too many more steps. It would have been a breakthrough over there too for a negro, but I wouldn't play. I turned that down.
[04:56:25] Now this is...
WEISBERGER: [04:56:28] Howard Jenkins.
JONES JR.: [04:56:29] This is a leap up. In fact it would have been a one or atwo grade promotion when it occurred. I'm not so sure what I heard. A 14 or a 15, but I had moved up. We talked about that 14 thing didn't we?
WEISBERGER: [04:56:49] Yes.
JONES JR.: [04:56:52] I maybe was at that principal. I might even had gone up tothe next step since, but that's unclear and not terribly important. Here I had this dilemma. I had this year coming to study. One of the conditions if you take that year off, you have to come back for at least a year. Certainly if you're thinking of going to another agency, you could quit your job and go private I guess and what would they do about it? Sue you to get the money back? So I hadn't taken the year. That's pending. I got this offer. It's pending. I guess the way that I would put it is two things I want you think about, would you go with me? As my chief legal, but even if you don't do that would you be willing to prep me for a legislative appearance on... you know the Taft-Hartley stuff. If I need somebody to go with me for the... which was very complimentary.
[04:58:08] So there I was. If there ain't enough pressure on you, you got thesesubstantive things and then you go these other issues, right? I was having trouble because you know making a decision. I did something the only time I did it in my whole career in the labor department. I requested an audience with the Secretary of Labor on a matter of personal privilege and he granted it.
[04:58:42] I went down to his office and he was in the back of the little officeeating lunch at his little desk and I'm sitting there and I told him my dilemma. He reacted as if I had punched him in the stomach. He said, " I can't advise you on that. I'm sorry I even agreed to talk to you about it." Well now I realized what he was saying and he didn't go into detail, but it was a conflict of interest for him. I was asking for career advice. He knows the whole field. It was a matter of career advice. Should I take that move or stay here?
WEISBERGER: [04:59:28] But he's an interested party.
JONES JR.: [04:59:33] He's thinking great. Naive and sophisticated as he'ssupposed to be, set aside that all and he... some people I guess would be surprised by this. That just shows you the extent of what I really didn't appreciate the significance. Although if I thought about it say well if I go who's going to pick up [inaudible 04:59:57]. Are you kidding? I'm it. They'd have to go... at least... well they went deep into the pile when I started doing this stuff.
[05:00:07] If I thought about it, I would have said why did they go into... nobody wanted to hire me it and it turns out I had a special bunch of credentials that was hard to duplicate. A matter of fact I would suspect, but we couldn't prove it, when I finished law school there wasn't another person, black or otherwise, with two professional degrees and experience, practical experience in the industrial relations part on a sophisticated level. A law degree from the labor law school with great credentials. They under hired me and threw me in with all these clerks and law review from Columbia and Chicago and Yale and did we have anybody from Harvard at that time in the junior group? Oh LLM from Harvard. We had a kid got her LLM from Harvard. Archie Cox was her advisor.
[05:01:12] I never paid that much attention to look backwards on stuff and[inaudible 05:01:16] choose people. So if I had thought about it I would have said gee, gotta find out from somebody else. I shouldn't ask Bill. Well who you going to ask? I can't ask Charlie. If I ask my boss he'll say are you kidding? Well no Charlie would have been a lot less ethical. He would have probably said no way and further more if they ask me I won't release you to go. I don't know how that worked.
[05:01:48] That was a short... then I left and he's struggling and I reallystruggled and I decided I told Howard I really appreciate the offer, but I suggest that for somebody... an older guy with a whole lot of legal stuff that didn't know much about that law, but he knew about supervising people. Was a forceful person on our staff and was up the line. Was a brief writer and he chose Howard, Lee. Lee became his chief legal as they call him and I stayed. I don't know what was amidst in one of these crisis that we were down a brief and a secretary now. I'm a supervisor or the other hand grenade. As it was all over I said to him by the way Mr. Secretary, I decided to turn down that other job offer and stay. He really lit up and said how delighted he was that I had chosen to do that. Then he said I think you made the best choice. So it was a two fold.
[05:03:15] I don't know whether I explained it to him. I didn't explain it tohim. It was a short thing. I explained to myself. If I go over to [inaudible 05:03:22] I have no independent personality. I'm just Howard Jenkins' man. He's the... talk about bird member Jenkins, they almost never referred to... well it was a career if I spend... well I didn't realize I could have spent 20 years and retired from the board or I could have left for chief legal and became an administrative law judge and retired from the board. All of those slots were at the top of their civil service structure and each would have been a breakthrough for us. Black folks. A lot of women by the way. Women had moved up a little bit. I had decided that in the labor department, even though I didn't have a... I don't think I had a title yet, if I did it was a mini title, deputy or something. I was a person in my own right. I was not so much outside, but within the confides of the agency.
WEISBERGER: [05:04:27] Well also the areas that you were developing expertisewere broader. Even though the National Labor Relations Act is very very important and plays a key role... played a key role we can argue whether it still does, but I think the labor department's jurisdiction when you were there, it was just exploding.
JONES JR.: [05:04:49] No question. First of all, we had 160 some lawyers on thelaws already that they administered. None of which I wanted to be involved in. The period of time, you have to go back to '59 or '57. From '57 to '60 fire, avertible explosion in labor law. Quietly the public sector was one that we dashed that off on and pushed that out and went on to OSHA. The reporting and disclosure thing for pension and welfare stuff. All that stuff was coming out of the labor department and we were the legislative division was up to here.
WEISBERGER: [05:05:31] That's even before we throw the civil rights...
JONES JR.: [05:05:36] Yes.
WEISBERGER: [05:05:36] ... legislation into the mix?
JONES JR.: [05:05:39] Right. I don't know when OSHA came in. Maybe it came in alittle later.
WEISBERGER: [05:05:43] I'm not sure either.
JONES JR.: [05:05:47] Equal pay thing... it went through so easily, but thatother thing was rattling around. No body paid much attention to that one. All sorts of dynamics.
[05:06:00] And you know, all sorts of dynamics were going on. The other is, acomfort zone. This is my umpteenth administration where I've survived, I'm now up ... and in the legislation, where you're always close to the policy. But I'm getting to the point now that hey, I'm Principal Attorney, the next step, they had to upgrade the whole offices before they could make room for any more promotions for folks. I remember a story about my office mate, who'd been in Clement Haynsworth Law Office, graduating from the University of North Carolina Law School. A white male, Episcopalian probably. He was a delightful Southern, obviously liberal fella named Milton Wiliiams. Got an LLM at Georgetown in Labor Laws and Environment working at a desk. Various people who started about the same time kind of went up in lockstep, you know, after you were eligible and you would get a promotion and it would be a ripple effect, so. I remember once, Milton and I had gotten GS-13s, that's the beginning supervisor, you know. But I understand that, that's the level at which that fella was in the White House, what was that name, that Lieutenant-Colonel ... Oliver North, the equivalent translation in the military, Lieutenant-Colonel, who was a 13, maybe he was a 14.
[05:07:37] But anyway, they don't quite exactly parallel but you get so youstart running out of room on the ladder, alright? And these people have got substantial responsibilities, and so Milton said to me after this one day, he said "Well, Jim, I guess we have to relax now and wait for somebody to retire or die before we can expect another promotion."
[05:08:03] And the arrogance of this Southern colored boy to this white boy thathad been an Associate in a major law firm in the South. I said "Don't include me in that." You know?
[05:08:19] And then he said, "Well, what do you think you're going to be,Assistant Solicitor?"
[05:08:21] I said, "Yes, and if you don't plan to be, then you'd better getready to work for me!"
[05:08:28] Right? Now, where does this come from, I mean?
WEISBERGER: [05:08:29] Yeah, where does it come from?
JONES JR.: [05:08:31] I don't have the political outsider says ... the businessof .... Why should I, I'm looking around these other people, why should I-
WEISBERGER: [05:08:40] Defer to them.
JONES JR.: [05:08:41] -why should I decide I don't even aspire to anything else?
[05:08:46] I was unwilling to just accept it. You know, Well that's the end of... what are you, a displaced rose? I mean, I'm gonna ...
[05:08:55] Well, the bottom line that ultimately occurred, he ended up workingfor me. Not in the same division, and he wasn't assigned to me.
WEISBERGER: [05:09:05] Mm-hmm (affirmative), right.
JONES JR.: [05:09:05] But if he worked on stuff in the area that I was Counselfor Labor Relations and General Legal Service, I was his supervisor. He ultimately left and went to work for Sarge Shriver and had I gone over and taken the opportunity to go work for Shriver, he'd have ended up working for me anyway!
[05:09:26] Shriver tried to ... did I tell you that story?
WEISBERGER: [05:09:29] No.
JONES JR.: [05:09:29] Shriver tried to steal me over to OEO. He made a fatalmistake. I probably wouldn't have gone anyway, but we'd scheduled an interview, one-on-one with the great man.
[05:09:41] I went over at the appointed time, at 15 minutes early from thatpoint, and sat there for a whole hour or so. And then when he showed up, what he was doing ... but he had another appointment up on Capitol Hill and he said "Come ride with me." So we walked out of the place, got in the limousine, rode up to Capitol Hill and got up there and so we walked up to, you know, "Let's continue til we get to my appointment."
[05:10:10] He interviewed me on the walk and in his limousine and on the walkdown to Congress. Well. If I had been persuadable, right-
WEISBERGER: [05:10:21] He now guaranteed you would not be!
JONES JR.: [05:10:24] He just blew it. It said, this job was so unimportant, hecouldn't even make real time to interview a candidate who was black.
WEISBERGER: [05:10:35] You don't want that job.
JONES JR.: [05:10:36] Nah, nah, nah. John Bale, the kid I told you that the twoof us wrote ... in 1988 and all that stuff, went over to OEO and that was [inaudible 05:10:50] another one of the kids out of the legislation division of [inaudible 05:10:57]. Sarge Shriver knew where to go to steal good talent, because he had these promotions, and these guys had topped out of Labor. The structure was such that they weren't gonna-
WEISBERGER: [05:11:13] They weren't gonna-
JONES JR.: [05:11:15] Well, no, there's no more ... If I move up to a 15, thatmeans these three guys are, they've got to wait until ... they could've stayed in because they didn't anticipate that Labor was going to explode. There had been some explosion in those jobs with that interest in that field, but you know, the business of waiting for some development when you've got a bird in the hand, you have to be stupid like Jim Jones and, say like, "I ain't going to nowhere, that's 16. That's not what it's really about, right?"
[05:11:46] So anyway. I got promoted, and I came over and this was to GS-15. Itwas probably very close to-
WEISBERGER: [05:11:58] I have an interview between June Weisberger and ProfessorJames Jones and, Jim, you were telling about the title.
JONES JR.: [05:12:09] Okay.
[05:12:11] Having broken through at the 14, because of the expandedresponsibilities in the Legislation Division, and the established Counsels and then the deputy counsels so they could justify some more 14s and a 15. The problem was they hadn't upgraded the assistants' jobs to 16s. So when you move up to 15, except for the step grade, you're the same grade as your bosses, that's-
WEISBERGER: [05:12:40] Yeah. That's no good administration.
JONES JR.: [05:12:43] Well, they are, they go through the Civil ServiceCommission, and the allocation of super-grades, 16, 17 and 18, was constricted.
[05:12:52] So you'd have to get all sorts of things before you could make roomfor them. They ultimately did it and moved things up, but. I'm thinking on one time, my boss, whom I referred to, when I joined, she was a first level supervisor. By this time, she's the assistant solicitor for legislation. Seeing a woman in the legal, second senior, because ... She joined her rival in calling Bessie Mardelen who was the Assistant Solicitor for Litigation, and had been for years, but she was locked in at a 15 too. The only 16 was the political slot that was right up with the Deputy Solicitor and he only had one. So you had a bunch at the top, ultimately.
[05:13:39] Anyway. So when I got promoted to Counsel for Labor Relations andGeneral Legal Services and the GS-15, that General Legal Services covered all that Civil Rights stuff, so should have, right, all that other junk folded into there, okay. Well ... where were we going with this?
WEISBERGER: [05:14:06] As I flipped it, you were describing the full title andyour responsibilities when you got the promotion.
JONES JR.: [05:14:14] Okay. That really covered ultimately what was going tohave to be strung off into an entirely different little law office, as we would call it. Because the Labor Relations and General Legal Services if you took in the Civil Rights under them, had generated so much traffic in the division of legislation and general legal services that the tail was wagging the dog, right?
[05:14:44] So manpower training came on, they all ... well, they forgot that,the manpower training stuff. All that stuff was, percolating all over the place and they had the staff for it. Now, the government were always slow in staffing, because of the structures you have to ... but anyway.
[05:15:01] So when this bundle of stuff, this business here and so forth, well... the highlight, I guess you would say, of that part of my career was when their words appeared before the House Judiciary Committee on the second day of the Congressional Hearings on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It was the Civil Rights Bill of 1963. Bobby Kennedy had been the test-
WEISBERGER: [05:15:37] Lead-off-
JONES JR.: [05:15:38] Lead-off witness. And he went up there and really tore his britches.
[05:15:47] Now, so sophisticated, all these politicians, he realized, "We ain'tgot a prayer of getting a Civil Rights law passed unless we get substantial Republican support." And there was some Republican senators at Congressman level, from places where they had a need, let alone whatever ideological positions they might hold, they had a political need to make some showing on this.
[05:16:19] One of them was a senior guy, Bill McCulloch from Ohio. And he had alittle bill in, right? It was a more symbol than substance kind of thing, but it was a little bill. That basically, what it did was recognize, congressional recognition or ratification as we call it, of the legitimacy of the President's executive order effort for anti-discrimination.
[05:16:47] And if you remember a little vaguely, Roosevelt started it and one ofthem, I forgot that senator's name from Georgia that ... I looked at some of my publications, I have a document ... that got this law passed that made it impossible for Roosevelt to continue operating the FEPC thing out of the White House, out of his back pocket. Requiring any program exists for more than a year to have to have specific appropriation in the back office.
[05:17:20] But then it went too far, and the pre-defense department, the WarDepartment, the Army and Navy and so forth, they went through some of whatever-his-name and said "Hey look. That law prohibits us from co-operating together and doing stuff out of the budgets we got that relate, so that ought to be coordinated and worked together, and it's, you know."
[05:17:47] So then he got, passed another one that made an exception for aninter-agency thing, which just let the cat right out the bag. Which explains why President Kennedy's Executive Order was the President's Committee since it had multiple agencies.
WEISBERGER: [05:18:05] Inter-agency.
JONES JR.: [05:18:06] Labor was always one. Labor, Defense, some by whoever ...And then tripartite preachers, teachers, labor management. Made it a huge thing, and it had the fundamental flaw in it which then ... something gets delegated and then the administration supplying the money to run the thing like asking for it and then some.
[05:18:31] So Labor was always involved in some fashion in staff support.
WEISBERGER: [05:18:37] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [05:18:39] Even for the Eisenhower thing that was aided by Nixon. Butit was in another building and virtually no contact with the rest of it that I know about, so. It was only when the Kennedy people came along and I got detailed to write the rules that threw me into the mix of the civil rights stuff. There was nothing in the Legislation Division except the old things from the Senator Taft days, and Roosevelt and stuff like that that didn't go anywhere.
[05:19:12] But that was the data bank. And that other stuff was some place else,right? Almost foreign. So we got into a thing where it's, so you gather what you can, you know, in a move where this, you know, people say, "I hope that the people over in Haiti and various places ain't operating like this."
[05:19:34] I'm not so sure about that. Anyhow. Well.
[05:19:38] I had this woman that worked with me. Barbara Evans. Was I at the ...I was the chief about then, how does that work? Anyway, Barbara was a good lawyer. And she was a good secretary. She took shorthand, as fast as you could talk. Then come back and type it up. So we covered legislation here.
[05:20:07] And obviously, I had all this other stuff that was crawling all overme, so I sent Barbara up there to cover the hearing, and she came back from the hearing with her notes. She said, "You won't believe the attorney general has put the secretary in a terrible position," so she told me. He had dumped on as inadequate, on employment things the responsibility on this old ... I don't know what they knew, but there was several other Republican congressmen that had introduced the same thing, that wasn't anything any stronger in the original title seven, it was just the same little. These guys had introduced it to the secretary, and the thing in the bill was the same thing and he was ... so he dumped on all this, dumped it on these people too. Said "Oh boy, we're all ready to go up with the secretary's testimony and that, so."
[05:21:20] The next day in the briefing session, the secretary is there, we haveto clear the testimony and I had written the testimony and, this is another story, the last, it used to drive Edith crazy because she couldn't write something that Bill would accept and I decided that, the majority of it, I don't care how good it is, Bill's gonna write his own stuff. So I'd write my testimonies. I'd touch all the substantial points too and then, sometimes you'd be writing and looking for a nice quote or something, a bird in the hand or .... and I'd say "No, not gonna put that in my testimony. I'm gonna make a copy of that and put it in the briefing book, so when Bill rewrites my testimony and sees the words there, he's likely to pick that up and put it in his", right?
[05:22:19] Well anyway, he was going through a number of drafts, and there wasone Sunday afternoon I went out to the secretary's house to get his final editing of the testimony, and when I went up there, Jane answered the door and she was in an apron. She was in the kitchen making cherry pie, and Bill was up on a ladder in the backyard picking cherries. I can still remember the summer, it was hot as hell!
[05:22:47] Anyway, so he came in all hot and sweaty, he said "Now when I speakabout the farm-workers, you know, I can speak from first hand experience about just how difficult that is."
[05:22:59] And then he gave me his changes and I jumped into my VW and I wentback down to the office and turned them over to Edith, I guess and they had to put them in the hopper with the ... you know, we didn't have copy machines, you'd have to make these mats and then run it all ... because she had to deliver six hundred copies to the Hill.
[05:23:23] And anyway, I took the little 5 by 8 cards and do a few notes on it,so that after all these people didn't want to get in on the act of briefing the secretary and all, some of it ain't very useful because she never did that, paid attention or something. But I'm writing up the hearings, because they appear with my name, I'd have the briefing notes in my hand, copy for the solicitor, copy for his legislator guy and a copy for Hobart Taylor who now was a special assistant to the vice president. I'm thinking. Maybe he wasn't. Yeah, I guess he would've been.
[05:24:18] And the quiet ride up in a limousine, occasionally we used to callthe cars and he looked at it and said, "It makes a substantial amount of difference doesn't it?"
[05:24:37] Basically, what it says is, this guy's really screwed up andsomething's got to be done to reassure these, particularly Congressman McCulloch, who was on the committee, who was the lead on, to take the sting out of ... essentially, Bobby's insulted them by saying, by trying to make some distinction between administration standards ... well he's the man, and, you know. See Bill and Bobby. I think Bobby should've known better anyway. I believed Bobby, I never talked to Bobby, but Bill was trying to get a strong one, this piece of the bill, and I understood that Bobby wanted a stronger bill. Because ... see, I'm getting my time somewhat screwed up, this was the hot summer, because the day of the March on Washington-
WEISBERGER: [05:25:30] Which is '63.
JONES JR.: [05:25:31] Right.
[05:25:33] I had work that day. I was counsel for Labor Relations. Because mydeputy was Bob Gutner, who ended up, ultimately ... he wrote the Kennedy [inaudible 05:25:49] Bill and ultimately selected him as his chief of staff. After three months, he fired him and hired Bill Kristol. And the reason I suspect he fired Butler was, Butler was pure pro, and didn't cut you any slack because of your political stance. If he's a staffer, you know. And I think that he wasn't part of something enough for Graham. But he's half a against Bill Krystol and that's saying something because, obviously, he's not shabby. But Bob Gutman finished Harvard College sooner, there was nobody. The year before I think Kissinger was sooner ... but he was tied with somebody else. And then Bob stayed on and quit the graduate program at Harvard at the ABD stage as a PhD student because they bored him and it was trivial. And then went to work for the Library of Congress. And then left it all a bit later.
[05:27:09] He ultimately went to law school at night when he was workingfull-time ... maybe he and Pat Harris were tied, but he was in Pat Harris's class. Bob was something. Only guy whose handwriting was worse than mine.
[05:27:25] Anyway. We were on the March on Washington, we were detailed to go upto the senate. Because Wayne Morris, Clark, Hubert Humphrey and Jabbetts, were livid also because the employment thing was so weak. So they wanted technical assistants to have a real bill drafted, so I got to sign up and took my number one guy with me to get specs for, you know, basically you get a pay-off. But it's [inaudible 05:27:59] so you get momentum.
[05:28:01] So when people are marching down toward the Lincoln Memorial for jobsin civil rights or what have you and there was wall to wall people out there. Pennsylvania Avenue was a vacant lot. We went out the back door of the Labor Department in one of the limousines and went up to the Senate Office Building to get specs. How's that for people demonstrating on work and [crosstalk 05:28:27]. And we wrote a bill that had so much muscle that nobody wanted to draft it. I don't know whatever happened to it. But that's a good little story.
[05:28:35] All these things go on in a crisis.
WEISBERGER: [05:28:37] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [05:28:39] Actually with the railroad stuff going on too. We won bothof them and we were down there one weekend working on something and oh, everything they wanted the day before yesterday. So we're coming "secretary wants this so, and so." I would move out the chair and say "When?" Charlie said "Somebody could pick up the phone and ask him when he needs it and if you don't want to, I will." When you're so essential they can't do without you and a little bit reckless I guess, but blunt. But anyway, so Charlie picked up the phone and gave us a date. So we already got one crisis. We were down there that weekend working on this railroad thing and it's pretty much, got it sorted out and it's filed. I said to Bob, I said "I don't trust these people in time."
[05:29:38] Well, we're fooling around nursing this thing too, why don't we writethat other bill. Now here's what my practice is by this time, getting prepared for the crisis probably. What's the problem in [inaudible 05:29:51], we worked on it a little bit, I started a file. Then any time after that, as we sort of played with ifs and went to coffee and you know, anything that would come up that would be related I'd make a copy of it and stick it in that file-
WEISBERGER: [05:30:03] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [05:30:04] So I was always putting it in a file and stuff ....sorting out what's happening and impressionable. So we were almost never stuck with just-
WEISBERGER: [05:30:14] A piece of paper with nothing on it.
JONES JR.: [05:30:17] Nothing on it start right now. So we got out our file andthe two of us wrote a bill ... and you know, stealing stuff from various places and you learn a lot of shortcuts like, you know, if they're gonna talk about big organizations, hell, we've got two different statutes, and one of the comprehensive one that defines it Landor Griffin, we've been that route before. We put this in there for that.
[05:30:44] What about an injunction? Well, we don't wanna put that up top butall that hang up about during the strikes always pick the most language and stick it in here in the contract and so ... you know, when you've got a file like that and you got specs that somebody talked about, these pieces fit specs. Most people who are in charge of a lot of money won't tell you how to do this, right? This is worth a gazillion dollars if you allow this, right? Which I also didn't realize, I never went up the Hill, whereas some of my young people went up there that worked for me and wound up getting chief counsel of the Labor Committee.
[05:31:29] And we sent a kid from here, by the way, one of my students, andhanded in, Gerald Linfield. Anyway, so we put this thing together, me and Bob-
WEISBERGER: [05:31:40] I know you were juggling a lot of balls. Would you saythat there came a time when you spent most of your time on civil rights issues, legislation?
JONES JR.: [05:31:55] Kind of hard because-
WEISBERGER: [05:31:57] Yeah. There were different crises that came about so-
JONES JR.: [05:32:00] Yeah, and by the way, the railway labor thing got takencare of before the Civil Rights Bill got passed. But then there came a time when we got out of the crisis part of the civil right's thing, because our part of it was over. Where now it's a legislative fight with all the dynamics and Dirkson and Mansfield and all this stuff, but all the pieces now are in play. And it's a question of what you're gonna put in it. And the Justice Department was probably in the midst of the screwing around with the Civil Rights Act because it had 11 titles, and ours was just two.
WEISBERGER: [05:32:40] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [05:32:41] Well, one and a half, really. Since everybody had someTitle Vi concerns. But the employment part of it was our big one. And the relationship with the President's existing programs on it and the executive order. But once that was, sort of, resolved then the big fights were between whether or not that commission was going to be the ... now our B-type model which was the one we had, something like that-
WEISBERGER: [05:33:07] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [05:33:09] By the way, me and Bob fixed the problems with that one.When you've got to write a statute, you don't just buy into all the problems, Let's fix this too, right. But so both of them subsided in terms of the Labor Department's involvement. Then I was released to go take my year.
WEISBERGER: [05:33:31] And what was the year that you were off on your research?
JONES JR.: [05:33:34] Oh, hell.
WEISBERGER: [05:33:35] Roughly.
JONES JR.: [05:33:38] I would have to. It would've been '63-'64. Since ... oh,by the way, I almost had to put it off again, you've reminded me of something else and this really cements the fact that one subsided before the other. When they passed the railway ... the mediation to finality, Jim Rhodes goes and "That has got to be the dumbest thing. What are you talking about?" That's all well, you know.
WEISBERGER: [05:34:09] But everyone loves mediation, so I can see the-
JONES JR.: [05:34:13] But to finality [crosstalk 05:34:14].
WEISBERGER: [05:34:14] Right, right.
JONES JR.: [05:34:16] Don't say arbitration! But anyway. When that bill gotpassed, it had some public staffing thing in it and the proposal was made and I don't know where in the department they made it, that Tom Powers, who was the secretary's exec and then moved ultimately moved up to be a deputy solicitor under Charlie Bowers for a while that the party should choose Tom for staff director for this little whatever thing. The procedure just stature ... and take Jim Jones as Counsel and I don't know if I ever would've gotten out of it. It would have been several years later before I got a chance to do this research because it was an opportunity you couldn't decide not to do, right? The party vetoed it. I think it had nothing to do with me and Tom but they wanted to make their own independent, however they made their choices, because we would've been quite a team, we were too much of a team with the second year labors.
[05:35:43] Anyway, so that disappeared, right.
WEISBERGER: [05:35:46] Cleared up.
JONES JR.: [05:35:48] And then the civil rights thing, you know, the crisis partof it subsided.
WEISBERGER: [05:35:54] Simmered down, right.
JONES JR.: [05:35:55] Right. So I was released to go in the-
WEISBERGER: [05:35:59] And were you able to take the full time that you?
JONES JR.: [05:36:03] Oh look, Bob Gutman operated now, the became the deputybecame the acting counsel and I-
WEISBERGER: [05:36:09] You did it.
JONES JR.: [05:36:10] I had all my stuff in a cart I moved from office tooffice. A Dictaphone, and Jill Myerson who was my secretary, and she didn't have any crisis to do with the regular job, but Bob was her boss, she would transcribe my tapes. And I spent ten months in the basement of the Labor Department. Now, we're getting this stuff sort of jumbled on top of each other. I was working on the sabbatical thing when Kennedy was shot, does that make sense?
WEISBERGER: [05:36:51] Yes. Yeah, you said it was-
JONES JR.: [05:36:53] 'Cause I was at home writing something, and one of mycolleagues from the Labor Department, who also edited my draft of the second [inaudible 05:37:04], she was one of the editors of the monthly Labor... I had written the for the Labor Bill at [inaudible 05:37:18] office, you know, cases, and I wrote that for years and Phyllis was the editor, so we had to work, and she was marvelous. I liked her too, she retired and started being professional but anyway. I think it was Phyllis called me. And it was so unlike her, I was so shocked, I said "That really is a gauche joke, I mean, come on, I'm sitting here with all these damn yellow pages and so forth, and she said "Turn on your television." So I sat for the rest of the whatever it was watching that television. Now, that fits because otherwise I would have been at work where I was actually on sabbatical.
WEISBERGER: [05:38:18] Did you think, or were you ever part of discussionsshortly thereafter, that this would have some sort of impact on future civil rights legislation? That-
JONES JR.: [05:38:33] I was not connected to the civil rights establishment.
WEISBERGER: [05:38:36] To the political-
JONES JR.: [05:38:37] Or the party political stuff. The party stuff would haveto still sift through whoever was in power.
WEISBERGER: [05:38:44] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [05:38:45] The other business about watching what was going on in thecongressional record and the newspapers and the dynamics of the players. And even with civil rights organizations, but the civil rights organizations, they speak with their ... didn't know I existed so I wasn't down there, I wasn't part of their community. I belonged to the NACP and Urban League, local chapters where you just pay in little dues and I wasn't active in any of that. So I had no political, even with a small p, involvement. Industrial relations research association, which, when I came to teach I became the elected president of the Washington Chapter, which was the largest chapter, and then served one term as the secretary-treasurer, and then I served a tour as chair of the Federal Bar Association labor management committee which had thirteen thousand members.
WEISBERGER: [05:39:53] That's pretty impressive.
JONES JR.: [05:39:53] Well, it sounds a lot more than it was.
WEISBERGER: [05:39:54] Somebody's paying their dues.
JONES JR.: [05:39:57] Well, federal bar, I belong to too, I didn't belong to theAmerican Bar Association until we came-
[05:40:00] To I didn't belong to the American Bar Association til you can teachand got a corporate one, but there was a sort of practice a lot of these things the establishment would underwrite in a sense. You selected for the all these things, and you could bring that to your office and get staff support too and that was the government's contribution to the associate professional associations and their people involved.
[05:40:30] And so my external activities were just those two. When I left thegovernment and came out here I...well by that time the civil rights people had discovered me because of my, the next step. But all this jumbles. I'd have...a lot of things happened so fast, you see. This was a compressed period, the place was going mad, right? The place, the government with all these changes and...
[05:41:04] Well any way, when I finished, I'm trying to sort this stuff out,because when I finished my year, I had this 186 typewritten manuscript. And we worked on that for I don't know how long to sort of juggles presentations and so, that these [inaudible 05:41:26] wonderful attitude. And not a lawyer, you know, but with some sophistication that labor theory would say, one, you shouldn't have your friends edit for you, it strains the friendship. It doesn't flow clearly. It's all here, but if you...some of the things I got into sequentially, as I got the boxes and so forth from Justice, or dug into legislative history. But then when you start to put it together, finally, that way isn't the most clear way to go -
WEISBERGER: [05:42:08] Right.
JONES JR.: [05:42:08] Go from A to Z. You go from A to N and then down to P andback up to C. So that's where a good attitude is very good. A person who isn't too close to the flow.
[05:42:22] So we...and you know Bob, Robert Harris, that was a federal mediator?I'm sure you're...
WEISBERGER: [05:42:28] Yes.
JONES JR.: [05:42:28] Well anyway, Rita Lou Harris was Bob's wife. She typed themanuscript, the final manuscript.
WEISBERGER: [05:42:34] When you were off doing this research and writing it up,were you in constant touch with your office? Okay, so you really did ...
JONES JR.: [05:42:47] [crosstalk 05:42:47] but they had something. Bob, who wasmy deputy, if he was into something that was, you know, he would pick up the phone and call me. But I had no, I wasn't running back down to the office. As a matter of fact, I was in the building most of the time. But I was down there in the basement in some of the offices and so I just had a current...at one time I had all of the boxes from the Justice Department in the previously-litigated cases. I went through every slip of paper in there.
WEISBERGER: [05:43:18] You must be one of the very few people in the world whocould say that.
JONES JR.: [05:43:23] I'm sure that I'm probably the only...
WEISBERGER: [05:43:25] ...ones, on October 11, 2004, this is tape number six ofan oral history project.
[05:43:33] Okay, at the end of tape five you were just in the middle of havingdiscovered this paper in the course of your research.
JONES JR.: [05:43:39] I went through all of these pieces of paper and it soundslike a more massive job than it turns out. Because as yo know, if you start going through big files a lot of it will be, oh this again. You know, it's...to sort of...
WEISBERGER: [05:43:55] Right. But you still have to go through it.
JONES JR.: [05:43:58] Right. And I found an original copy of the order that JohnKennedy signed and broke Taft-Hartley emergency dispute provisions for the first time in history. It was just in this file.
[05:44:09] If I were a crook I would have just removed that, maybe, if therewas, make a copy, if it was very important. It probably wasn't that important. Nobody appreciated the historical significance of it. I called it to the attention of somebody. It would be interesting to see if you could trace to see whatever happened to it.
WEISBERGER: [05:44:30] Right. Whether it's still there.
JONES JR.: [05:44:30] Right, or whether it went to the archives.
WEISBERGER: [05:44:35] Okay, now you said there was a disconnect that you wantedto fill in.
JONES JR.: [05:44:39] When Goldberg went-
WEISBERGER: [05:44:42] To the Supreme Court.
JONES JR.: [05:44:42] Supreme Court and Wertz became number two, I mean, hebecame involved, there was another guy who was Undersecretary, who had trade union political connections in California. So Jim Reynolds didn't immediately move up to be officially...
WEISBERGER: [05:45:05] Definitely.
JONES JR.: [05:45:06] Officially Bill's deputy. He was actually, because thatother guy was a cipher, and I was in the office one day in the building, early in the morning. I came early, and I don't know what reason I got off the elevator on the third floor, which was the heart of [inaudible 05:45:30]. And the Secretary was coming around the corner whistling. Out of the blue, as if I weren't there, he said, 'I finally got rid of that dumb son of a bitch.' And went on away. And I was, what on earth? And then I found out later on that the guy would have been Undersecretary had been named ambassador to Australia or something. He was kicked upstairs, right?
WEISBERGER: [05:45:57] Right.
JONES JR.: [05:45:57] So Bill got him out of the way and he could put JimReynolds officially in the number two job and then they could recruit somebody. That's when they got...
WEISBERGER: [05:46:07] For Reynolds' slot.
JONES JR.: [05:46:09] Right.
[05:46:10] But anyway...oh I know how that came about. In the...oh. Well whathappened after that is that Jack Gentry went with Jim Reynolds to the undersecretary's office as his exec. Jack had been the first director of the office of labor management policy development, which by the way was a GS-16 spot.
[05:46:44] And Jack had a bachelor's degree in labor and industrial relationsfrom one of those little Pennsylvania Catholic schools. And a law degree. But he didn't come to work for the Labor Department as a lawyer. He went to work as a management intern, which used to be a special entry for bright test scores and marked for future managers. Anyway so he was in that though he was a lawyer.
[05:47:10] I had a counterpart academic background, better than his.
WEISBERGER: [05:47:16] Right.
JONES JR.: [05:47:17] And experience, and we worked together on lots of things.And then [Landon Griffin 05:47:22] and all, he was one of the young people who was a shaker and mover in the department. In lower management stuff, we worked with a lot stuff.
[05:47:34] When Jack went up, that opened up a slot. There was a civil serviceslot that they had to advertise. And I took, you know, being the counselor for, I'm their backstop lawyer on all sorts of stuff, where we didn't have a researcher. I threw my name in there and they chose me. So I moved out of the Solicitor's office downstairs on the third floor. I had an office down there, had a staff on the second floor. And another half a staff out in Silver Spring.
[05:48:11] I had four jobs now. Three jobs now. I was the director of this,quote, think tank. So I had two chieftains. And you know, and I had to delegate, so I wasn't, I wasn't managing. But my office was in the office between Jim Reynolds and Jack Gentry. It was a walk-through sort of suite. The boss's office down here, secretary, a couple of secretaries for my office, a couple of secretaries for Gentry's office.
[05:48:48] Since Reynolds was the all-purpose troubleshooter for Labor andmiscellaneous stuff that the president dragged out to do all sorts of things, this is Johnson, Kennedy is dead. I used to get, I used to get - I never knew what I was going to do when I went to work in a day. I would get the assignment. Jim would be snatched off to go to somewhere, you know. He was in Memphis. Jack Gentry would have to catch whatever he was scheduled to do and I would have to catch whatever Jack was doing. So I had that job that had little directly to do with running the research operation.
[05:49:29] And then by this time they had established the, the Civil Rights Acthas passed, and they, this is '66, I think. The Civil Rights Act has passed, Civil Rights Act has passed, though nothing happened until '65 you know. Because they put off the effective date of Title VII. Some other stuff happened with six and things but none involved the Labor Department.
[05:49:52] But since the labor-management [NLB 05:49:56], labor relations ingeneral legal services in Legislation Division had inherited all the civil rights-type stuff, they finally had to establish another law office in the Solicitor's office and staff for those functions. So they did that. I'm downstairs now, already, in a GS-16 slot. But they can't operate upstairs without me because almost all the stuff in...you know how, well you don't know...government operated on files. That would be wonderful if I could go in and sit in and see how they're doing with computerized stuff. But see I still have a lot of my old files.
[05:50:38] And the research for who's going to get the assignment was, they'd bewalking around saying, 'Who's the last one who worked on Secondary Board of [Cross 05:50:45],' right, you know? So anyway, I kept - well, Charlie Donahue, when I left and went down to work for Reynolds, said 'You can't practice law downstairs. It's a lawsuit, there's a law practice, you can, right here.' But they couldn't do it up there totally without me. So you know, there'd be stuff that they're, and I'd have to go upstairs and huddle with the lawyers or whatever. Or if it was up to Charlie's level, I'd huddle with Charlie before he was going to turn it loose, go back.
[05:51:15] So when Tom Donahue came aboard, he inherited me and four otherpeople as his, as chief of his division. But his number two slot, his deputy slot, had been occupied by Gentry, who was now the Undersecretary's exec. So he had a vacancy to post it. I think it was a 17. So my name was in the hat for, obviously, I'm one of his divisions, he needs it. So Charlie Donahue who was the Solicitor, sent for me, and said, 'Jake Carroll is going to retire.' And Jake had been counsel for litigation, appellate litigation. He really trained, I believe, was involved in training Carolyn if I've got it right. Jake was a guy who was writing a brief for relaxation, walk around the corridor and do calculus problems in his head.
WEISBERGER: [05:52:23] Just for fun.
JONES JR.: [05:52:23] Just to, you know, get out of the loop for what he waswith this labor standards brief that they were doing. He didn't know beans about labor relations and civil rights except casually. But he was a senior guy with credentials so, you know, he set that up, he was running the store. And he decided to retire, he was going to Puerto Rico to teach law. And he learned Spanish so that when he went there he taught his courses in Spanish.
WEISBERGER: [05:52:57] In Spanish.
JONES JR.: [05:53:00] He was something else. Anyway, Jake was leaving. He was retiring.
WEISBERGER: [05:53:06] Right.
JONES JR.: [05:53:06] He'd had enough government. So he was retiring and he wasgoing to go teach. So Charlie had this vacancy. So he sent for me and he said, 'why don't you come up, come on back upstairs and take this mess?' and said, 'You know, you can't, I won't let you practice down there and we can't operate up here with you. You might as well just come on up here and run it, after all it's mostly your stuff.'
[05:53:29] So I was, you know, by this time, we had upgraded the Associate, theychanged the Assistant to Associate so they dealt with, that's why Jake went there, he got the 16 but they had unscrambled the logjam that all these 15's stacked on top of each another. Edith was a 16, Bessie was a 16. This was a 16.
[05:53:58] I'm already a 16. So I said to Charlie, well you know, all right, wetalked. I said, 'You know, Charlie, I've been very, I think, amenable to nuances in policy changes and so forth. And for reasons, whatever reasons you have, you can't go with the best view of the law. But if I come up and take a civil rights job I will be all over you and the whole Administration. I won't be reasonable, on your terms, for accepting the Administration doing, what I think is wrong. And I will push as hard as I can to get you and the establishment to go where I think it ought to go.'
[05:54:45] I said, I realize you have the last call but I want you to know Iwill be-
WEISBERGER: [05:54:48] Where you're coming from.
JONES JR.: [05:54:49] Let him know I will be a pain in the ass, is what I'mgoing to be on some things. I ain't just reasonable. Right? He said, 'We can work that out.' I said, 'Well okay, I'll tell you what. I'm in the mix for Donahue's number two. If I don't get it I'll come.'
[05:55:12] I'm sure when I left the office, it was one of the dumbest moves Iever made, Charlie said, 'What is that going to help them, get me Tom Donahue.' He say, 'Tom, this is Charlie Donahue. Don't choose Jim Jones for your number two slot.'
WEISBERGER: [05:55:32] I need him.
JONES JR.: [05:55:35] 'I need him back up here.' And I'm extrapolating now, if Iwas him, and his trump card would say, and by the way, it's civil rights, labor relations and civil rights. And the labor relations part of his job, you were his chief client. So he'd, I won't let him practice down there. I get him back up here and you get the best lawyer, right, for that part of it, rather than, if you take him on your payroll I won't let him practice law down there.
[05:56:10] I never had this discussion with either one of them. I said I justbet you that I really sort of trumped my own case. Which didn't, you know, I was, the administration stuff was not that interesting.
WEISBERGER: [05:56:25] It sounds like this was your meat.
JONES JR.: [05:56:26] Well, you know, it was, it was a calling. The young peoplethey hadn't recruited to put in that division. Most of them, what they had learn about the civil rights stuff and the labor relations stuff, they learned working for me.
[05:56:44] But for the seniority thing and a lot of the stuff like that Charlieprobably would have been trying to persuade me early on to take it when he first got it. So I don't know when I got the 16 before he got - I think maybe I went to the job that was a 16, before they got that all sorted out. So they had...
WEISBERGER: [05:57:03] So it took a while.
JONES JR.: [05:57:04] Yeah. And Bob [Gutman 05:55:41], meanwhile, had been goneover to [Manpaul 05:57:10] in training, where he was, and he was picked. And another slot was more to his... Anyway, so I don't know if I hadn't taken it, if he would been, who they would have gone to next. They might have gone outside, for that matter.
[05:57:25] So anyway, I went back up there. And this is '66. I know that prettymuch. I think I know that. No, maybe it was '67. Somewhere in there. I could track it.
[05:57:43] So now I'm in the hot seat. First time in my career I got a job thatsays that civil rights is my responsibility. And the hot stuff that emerged was the Executive Order. They passed Title VII. Johnson is the president after Kennedy's death. Johnson rewrites the executive orders, all the Kennedy executive orders plus some others. And the executive order on government contracting and affirmative action, that is the signal number for it now is the Johnson order that has been amended somewhat but its fundamentals remain in place. That's 11, what is it, 11246. EO 11246. You see people talk.
WEISBERGER: [05:58:49] Right, yeah.
JONES JR.: [05:58:51] And people say Johnson, they don't know. Actually whatJohnson did was packaged the two executive orders that Kennedy had issued plus a coordinating one he issued, 4647 and 48. And some of them had to do with internal civil rights. And Humphrey was his vice president who was in charge.
[05:59:17] Well one of the other things Title VII freed up, you no longer neededthis, this business of all these Congress of do-gooders and interagency. Because in the original Title VII one of the major provisions on employment, it mandates cooperation between Justice EEOC and the Labor Department, the executive order, the executive order administration. So having then Congress specifically embrace the president's executive order idea, and mandated to share the information between the agencies and coordination of that, and budgeting following for whatever, right?
[06:00:06] Johnson's people said we don't need to, you know, to the extent thatthere's that executive order, statutes exist that say you can't do this, right. We don't have to have this burdensome inter agency arrangement and outsiders and operated out of the White House's pocket, how will we do this thing. I will put all of the authority in the Secretary of Labor to administer the president's order. And enable the Secretary to delegate everything except general rulemaking. And that's what we did.
[06:00:50] And then when the appropriations, I mean, and now everything's out inthe open. When you go up...so when Johnson's guy, Hobart, ended up handling counsel for the executive order, or whatever, he was a Texas politician too.
[06:01:13] They would go up and I would be this separate presentation in thebudget for these particular things that they are in the statute, you know. And so I have argued vociferously and been ignored mostly about research and so forth. But I don't necessarily mean ignored by government people, because with all the yakking that the Reagan Administration for eight years has made about eliminating the Executive Order with a stroke of a pen, and the Bush, for Bush One, nobody has done anything except to expand it. And Reagan, making all the noises about with the stroke of a pen eliminating all this affirmative action crap, et cetera, signed two pieces of legislation where they spell out in detail in the legislation what is in the rules. It's part of a, and they're small bills, but that's not the point.
[06:02:18] So I have contended that the president doesn't have authority withthe stroke of a pen to eliminate that program. That program has got, it's one part of a three-part stool. And it's a legislatively-endorsed program, so it's not....
WEISBERGER: [06:02:33] I think that sounds like a pretty strong argument.
JONES JR.: [06:02:38] Well nobody, they haven't...
WEISBERGER: [06:02:40] They haven't done it.
JONES JR.: [06:02:40] Not even these people yakking now have done anything aboutchanging, and I have campaigned, and I'm going to be ignored again, about Justice O'Conner's notion of constitutional affirmative action is the executive order approach that started with the Revised Philadelphia Plan anticipated all the places they've gone. And she told her colleagues in Local 28 Sheet Metal Workers that their remedy was unconstitutional. What they should do is what the FCCP rules on affirmative action require. And she [ibsa dicsa 06:03:22] her Local 28 thing in her [Rouder 06:03:26] case affirmative, Michigan affirmative action thing. So I'm waiting for somebody, and they are going to do it, but I would hope somebody, like Linda Greene's article, she cites some of it, and I've suggested to Mario our latest successful Hastie that maybe he might want to write one of his things and track what I'm saying. He could write [inaudible 06:03:55] the article, you have to look at the earliest stuff and bring it forward. I think I'm going to have to get David Schwartz to look at affirmative action, because he said something the other day I was really shocked. I suggested some targeted recruitments since he said that the crop that they looked at, the minorities. And I want to say, first of all, I said, I said, 'You guys don't read what I've written. You ain't going to get what you're looking for in the minorities by going to the well that you usually go to to get other people because they don't go there.' The best ones ain't in the meat market, they're with Cravath, Swaine and Moore, you know. Or Sidley Austin. And so, and if you'd,
WEISBERGER: [06:04:45] You have...
JONES JR.: [06:04:46] If you'd in time, you'd say these people are practicingand if I really do like this or I got enough money anyway, you go there to recruit them out to come teach. My prime example of a successful thing of this is named Harry T. Edwards. He practiced five years with Seyfarth Shaw before Michigan spotted him. Okay?
WEISBERGER: [06:05:09] And that's, that's a very useful person.
JONES JR.: [06:05:12] They didn't find him at AALS. My other person was me. Iwasn't looking for a damn job. You know, they recruited me. Bob Belton wasn't [inaudible 06:05:21] the Vanderbilt guy, he was practicing law at the....
WEISBERGER: [06:05:25] No, you're making a good point.
JONES JR.: [06:05:27] Half the young folks that have gone, I mean, Michiganhired Ted Shaw, and he quit and went back to, went on leave, you know, but you know now he is the head of the Legal Defense Fund Inc. but he was never in the mix. Bill [Robertson 06:05:40], I can click off people like that. Linda Greene didn't come out of the meat market, nor did...anybody else you want to bring in. Pat Williams. Right? Beverley Moran.
WEISBERGER: [06:05:57] That's a good point.
JONES JR.: [06:05:58] There's another place to go and you got to go get them,because the ones that you're looking at, they don't impress you. But there are other places to go.
WEISBERGER: [06:06:08] Other places to go.
[06:06:10] Jim, I'm proposing that we end here today.
JONES JR.: [06:06:14] Where are we?
WEISBERGER: [06:06:15] And that we start.
JONES JR.: [06:06:17] I wonder what time we are here, 3:10.
WEISBERGER: [06:06:18] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [06:06:18] I used a two-hour block.
WEISBERGER: [06:06:20] And we start next one finishing your dates at the LaborDepartment which you didn't know were going to be the finish of your Labor Department career, because you didn't know you were going to be recruited to the academic...
JONES JR.: [06:06:32] This is a good place because see, I've got to finish thetwo years that I was really the counsel, I mean the Associate Solicitor. Because when you talk about enforcement of the executive order, see, all the first eight enforcement actions administratively I issued over my name as prosecutor.
WEISBERGER: [06:06:53] Yeah, and
JONES JR.: [06:06:53] And how that, how that...
WEISBERGER: [06:06:55] that's worth a significant amount of time. And then thetransition. How you got recruited.
JONES JR.: [06:07:03] But we also revised the executive order on public sectorcollective bargaining. Remember I told you that woman that was up there taking shorthand and recovered the
WEISBERGER: [06:07:13] Right.
JONES JR.: [06:07:14] She in fact wrote the Nixon version of it under my supervision.
WEISBERGER: [06:07:20] We definitely have to hit those two points, and then getto the transition of coming to Madison.
JONES JR.: [06:07:25] I think that probably, right. Oh, and the revisedPhiladelphia Plan.
WEISBERGER: [06:07:31] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [06:07:31] Which was the actual last major sign that I did for theNixon Administration.
WEISBERGER: [06:07:37] Yeah, no, I don't want to rush the last two years,because I think so much is packed into them.
JONES JR.: [06:07:43] Well that's true but I don't think that have to...if youstop me from talking wandering all over the lot we could probably get some of the fundamentals.
WEISBERGER: [06:07:51] Yeah, well....
JONES JR.: [06:07:53] Because [crosstalk 06:07:53] some of it's, it's in mybook, the serendipity aspect of it. Funny things that...okay.
WEISBERGER: [06:08:01] Okay.
TURNER: [06:08:03] This concludes the fifth interview of the oral history. Thesixth interview, conducted on October 18, 2004, begins now.
WEISBERGER: [06:08:11] Okay, today is October 18, 2004, and this is JuneWeisberger, and I'm sitting in Professor James Jones' office and we're continuing his autobiography, our oral history project. And we got up to the time in 1967 when he was appointed as the Associate Solicitor in the Department of Labor. Now.
JONES JR.: [06:08:37] All right. I think that it's worth talking about thetransition from the Director of the Office of Labor Management Policy Development, which I had been promoted to previously. That took me out of the law office, down into the, running a division of our client, the Assistant Secretary for Labor Management. Who was Tom Donahue, who had been a functionary in SEIU and was the mentor of the current president of the AFL-CIO, John Sweeney, is that his name?
WEISBERGER: [06:09:22] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [06:09:23] Tom went on to become head of the AFL-CIO, first for awhile and then he lost out, and I think in a political joust with him mentee. Anyway, and Tom was a lawyer, but he was not in a law job. And I wasn't in a law job, but when I down to take over that job, for a promotion that they didn't have in the Solicitor's Office, a handful of GS-16's, Charlie said, 'You can't practice law down there.' Charlie Donahue was the Solicitor's label. These two Donahues are confusing. But then after I went to work for a while, the first head of the new division of labor relations and civil rights was Jacob Karro, with a K, K-A-R-R-O. Jacob was a certifiable genius. He didn't know labor relations stuff. He was a brief writer and I think he was a principal mentor of Karen Krause. He was her supervisor. And he, Bessie Margolan, who was the Assistant Solicitor for Litigation, a renowned superstar and was head of that division, Jake was one of her chieftains.
[06:10:38] When Jake left to go teach, he retired, and that opened up thisAssociate Solicitor, they now upgraded the names of these things, for Labor Relations and Civil Rights. Charlie Donahue had insisted that I couldn't practice law on Tom Donahue's payroll. As a matter of fact, when I went down there, well I was working for Jim Reynolds. Tom came in after Jim moved up. That's a different story.
[06:11:10] Anyway, Charlie sent for me and said, 'Why don't you come up here andtake over this office?' He said, 'I won't let you practice law down there and we can't practice law up here without you.' So it's all this junk, as we call it. See all this junk usually had something to do with it, in the drafting stage or in its early administration. So why don't you just come take it?
[06:11:34] So I said to Charlie, 'You know, Tom's got his deputy's job posted.And since I'm one of his, I'm one of the chieftains of the constituent units, I'm an obvious candidate.' And it's a GS-17. It's a move up the ladder. The only 17 that Charlie Donahue had was his political appointee, he was his number two guy. Maybe he was even higher than that, I don't know.
[06:12:05] So I probably made a tactical error when I said to Charlie when wetalked about it. Two things. If I come back up here I'm not going to be the compliant, all-purpose lawyer for you in civil rights matters. I will push you and the department and the government generally as hard as I can to make you do the right thing, not just the convenient whatever you call it.
[06:12:32] So giving these alternative outs, you know, I will push you to thewall. He said, I understand, we can handle that. I said okay, so I'll tell you what. If Tom doesn't choose me for the promotion I'll come back up and take this job. Right? So I didn't even think about that too, how unsophisticated I was. I said, Charlie Donahue probably said, hmm, get me Tom on the phone. Picked up the phone and said, Tom, you know, of the people you will be considering for your deputy, don't choose Jim Jones. I need him back up here for the legal office of labor relations and civil rights. And by the way, the labor relations part of his responsibility, he's your lawyer. I like to think that that conversation went off, I mean two-
WEISBERGER: [06:13:23] Highly likely.
JONES JR.: [06:13:33] How come I, I really did shoot myself in the foot. But asI think back on it, it was a better fit to go up to do what Charlie wanted me to do than to supervise, shuffle the mail and stuff that would go to the Assistant Secretary, which would have been a higher grade and would, you know, would have been yet another step up the ladder for a black career person in the Labor Department. I was already as high, higher, than anybody had ever been in the, whole, career structure. And probably as the non-career too, there were so few blacks in the political slots that were high but there were a few.
[06:14:21] And it was novel stuff the administration of, the labor relationsstuff had to do with the public sector collective bargaining. I had already been through that since [John Bell 06:14:32] had written all that junk. Almost called the guy's name. To the extent that it was operational in the Labor Department I had been his lawyer anyway. But it was very easy to be his lawyer because he didn't have any rights, any enforceable rights.
[06:14:47] When they would get in trouble, Lou Wallerstein, was his name, wasthe first director under the executive order. He used to call me and whine about somebody, some lawsuit some place and I said, Lou, did you guys follow the procedural stuff? Yeah. I'd say, they don't have a prayer, there are no substantive rights in that order.
[06:15:05] So it was easy to be a lawyer for that right. Anyway, I went back upand took over the office, which was really not very well organized. It was sort of, I don't know what they would do. There wasn't that much for it to do, but the administrative stuff.
[06:15:30] And it was staffing problems and so forth. So the first thing I didwas to get rid of all the clerical staff. They said, 'You can't get rid of civil servants.' Yes you can. You can fire anybody for insubordination. And those old-timers who want to do the job the way they want to do the job without regard to the instructions to do it differently, a lot of, this is what gives bureaucrats a bad name. Not just in Washington. All over. I could name names in this building of people who are old-line bureaucrats. They get control of something and they manage it for their own benefit, the hell with the mission and the boss. And I work for the state, or I work for ...
[06:16:20] So I let the word go out that I had a little black book and I had achapter in there for everybody on the staff. Clerical, and lawyers. And we expected to do things in an efficient way so we could move what we had to move. Too few people for a large responsibility. An old-fashioned tread water [inaudible 06:16:44]
[06:16:45] So we didn't fire anybody. Didn't have to. Got rid of all of them.That taught them, if you don't want to do, you know, the new stuff, let me know and I'll help you find a job someplace else. Where you can nine to five and two coffee breaks and a long lunch, and you know, don't have to worry, you know, any crises, et cetera. Most of the jobs in the department are like that. But this new stuff is on trial.
[06:17:15] Okay. So we, people, one of the women, by the way, the last one I hadto get rid of, she went to the front office. She went to the deputy, the deputy slot. And she was very competent. But her way, you know, and I can't ... I go to a meeting and I say, look, you'll never - if I'm in a staff meeting or in there working with one lawyer on something and people call, don't say he's in conference. Put it through.
[06:17:49] I can take two minutes, generally, and resolve an hour's worth ofsomebody about client stuff and move it on along and then get back talking to the staff. The only time you don't put them through, if I specifically say hold the calls. When I'm away and you collect the calls, and I come back in and I look at them, I shuffle them in order and say, starting with the one on top, call them and tell them to come around. When you've finished, if it's my staff people, when you're finished making that call, call the next one.
[06:18:24] You know, they better wait til they come and then going to say, look,by the time that they walked down the hall for most of the stuff it's a one or two or three minute thing and we can clearly calendar. And then you can get, when you get to that, you can get to the important ones that are going to take a lot of time and we can move all that away. They just didn't believe that you could do that sort of thing.
[06:18:46] The other thing they didn't believe, and I told the supervisors,you're a supervisor. Your job is not writing or rewriting copy unless I specifically assigned the job to you. You're going to write it and I'm going to review it. Otherwise you do review work. If it isn't satisfactory, and I don't want you law review editors trying to conform people's copy to your copy, concentrate on substance and policy. If that's right, move it. If it's sloppily written, give it back to the young lawyer and tell them it's sloppy writing, rewrite it. And I don't want to see your slug - you know what slugging' is, right?
WEISBERGER: [06:19:31] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [06:19:31] And I don't want to see double slug unless I assign bothof you to work on it, okay?
[06:19:38] Now that did a number of things. It actually communicated to theyoung lawyers, you are expected to be a lawyer. And to do your best work. Okay.
[06:19:53] The other thing I told the secretaries, two of them, three of themsat in my office. One of them was my deputy's secretary, and then we had a spare, and then my secretary. And they were in a pecking order in terms of who was making the most money, was supposed to, you know, and one was kind of a floater. Maybe it was space.
[06:20:17] I, my secretary said, don't put drafts in my box, unless Ispecifically asked for a draft. And when you clear it, I want you to clear it. It's perfectly clear, there's no typos, no misspellings, et cetera, when you put it in my box, put it there for me, prepared to pick it up and say can I sign this, without reading it, or initialing it if it's, you know, somebody else's signature.
[06:20:47] And there's two answers to that: Yes, no. Okay? Don't put it down,because I might pick it up and say, oh that. And give it back to you, so we move it. I don't want, you know, duplication of function.
[06:21:05] I remember one time, a new girl she had given this speech to, she hadput something in the box and I said, 'Can I sign this?' She said, 'I think so.' I said, 'uh-uh, yes or no.' 'Well, yes.' I signed it and gave it back to her. And I look around the corner, laying it on the seat, they're being there, they're proofreading one anyway. Just what I expected. I said put it in, because you know, the government is so picky about even typos, et cetera go down. There was something about going down to Bill Wertz, if it ain't perfect [cripe 06:21:37]. So we, you know, perfect. But efficiently perfect.
[06:21:43] I had to threaten to fire one of my top lawyers. Counsel for civilrights, because he refused instructions to stop doing staff work, stop holding stuff, meetings. It had to move through him or it wouldn't move. And if he want, he was trying to, you know, play the game so he gets all the credit with the clients, et cetera and so that backlogged. And I told him and I told him and he didn't change, and I sent him a memo, he didn't. I sent him another memo, he didn't. I sent him a third memo.
[06:22:23] Now, the third memo, I went to the boss's office. I said, I want tofire Henry Rose. What? I said, I want to fire Henry Rose for insubordination. I have the documentation. And I said, either he goes or I go. But, so I told him, now, he's using the job to advance himself and frustrating. We got a limited number of people. We can't let the lawyers do a full job. They're frustrated with him fiddling with this stuff. It's bad for morale, it's totally inefficient and unnecessary. I told him and told him, I memoed him and memoed and memoed. And I've got the documentation.
[06:23:10] And then I said - he said - do you realize how he came here? I saidyeah. He said how do you, what do you mean? I said, you know, Secretary of Labor, he used to teach with him at Northwestern. He said, how do you know that? I said, I read his file. He said, that's not in his file. I said Charlie, I'm not talking about that junk that's in our office. I'm talking about the personnel security file that's upstairs on the top floor. How'd you know about that? I said, come on. I wouldn't tell him how I know. I knew about that playing tennis with one of their cops.
[06:23:45] I found out this guy works in the Labor Department, and you know,just conversation, what the heck do you do? I just, there's this whole operation. Well see, I learned a lot of things that civil service security people, they're sometimes better cops that the FBI in terms of personnel stuff.
[06:24:05] So then he said, then we chatted, he said, I'll tell you what. I'vebeen having, he went through this business of ... there was another kid, black kid, from Arkansas, classmate in law school of Shirley Abrahamson, Indiana Law School. Law review and all that stuff. He was working for the Labor Department. He was sent on up the ladder, up the career track, he was very good, and he was in that operation that I didn't go to Landrum-Griffin stuff, he was one of the top lawyers out there. He had started in fairly the standard stuff. Cream rises, and so, there was another kid that had gone to Columbia, Yale Law School.
[06:24:58] These are black guys both of them, one of them was really black. Theother was half Jewish but he ... And Saul Robinson was his special assistant, which you know, the throne guard, you know anything that's going in the front office has to go through the hands of these couple of people in there. And Saul was a wonderful lawyer and when he was a little too academic, I don't know what you'd call it. He didn't have a very good political sense for stuff. Realities and so. So Charlie said, yeah I've been thinking, he told me. I'm repeating, but, what he said, he had all of the compliments as well as the criticisms about Saul. And he said I want somebody in there that's got a little better feel for stuff and I'm thinking about this kid out in Silver Spring, which was McKinney.
[06:25:56] Now the reason he was so impressed with Rufus McKinney, both of theseguys have top, great, academic credentials. Saul, all elite schools and Mac went to the black state school in Arkansas. Pine Bluff, if you're going to Indiana that's a story by itself by the way. But anyway when they had retreats frequently the senior staff at this Solicitor's Office would go out to that farm in Virginia for a long weekend. And the regional solicitors would come in and they'd have sort of seminars on all sorts of stuff that policy matters and how you run a big organization, which is [inaudible 06:26:40]. And in the evening when they were socializing they'd play poker. And Charlie Donahue and his then-wife Bertha were poker players. And Mac was a poker player. So they used to play poker. And Mac would clean their clocks. Charlie and them thought they were such good poker players he told me, that McKinney guy always ends up with the money.
[06:27:05] So you know, I guess the, that's interesting about the notion of whatthe big boys, right, attribute to somebody who's a good player in a game that involves a lot of lying. Bluffing. But you've got something on the line that's not just trivia. So it tests your mettle a little bit as well as your skills at reading people.
WEISBERGER: [06:27:26] Reading people and having a good memory and ...
JONES JR.: [06:27:30] All of that. By the way ... John Kidwell was aprofessional-grade poker player. So I understand.
[06:27:45] But anyway what impresses Charlie the most about Mac in addition tohis legal skills
WEISBERGER: [06:27:57] Was his poker playing
JONES JR.: [06:27:57] Was that he had wound up with a very good, the business ofreading people and weighing things that weren't, that don't jump out at you from the paper.
WEISBERGER: [06:28:06] Well we know that there are a lot of very very brightpeople who don't have that ability.
JONES JR.: [06:28:11] There's a lot of people. As a matter of fact very verybright people are generally deficit in other skills that they don't even recognize are very important. And this building is full of them. Okay. Right?
WEISBERGER: [06:28:24] Well I think the academic world is full of them.
JONES JR.: [06:28:29] Well it's true. That's why I want to say this building.This is the academic world we've got more lawyers with nonacademic, some background other than just the academic. And most law schools are, I would think, just speculating.
[06:28:40] In any event, he moved three people. He moved this guy out of myoffice. Moved Saul Robinson onto my staff which gave me a minority. A real minority. And he moved Mac down to his specialist and moved the fellow he was getting rid of in Mac's job. Now see they were all the same grade level.
WEISBERGER: [06:29:11] Mm-hmm (affirmative)
JONES JR.: [06:29:12] Everybody was impacted at GS-15 by this point. But the oneout at in silver Spring had a title upgrade. Deputy rather than Counsel Four. Well.
WEISBERGER: [06:29:30] It worked.
JONES JR.: [06:29:32] It worked. And when it happened the fellow who got movedcame to see me. He said, Jim, I understand, if our positions would have been reversed I'd have done the same thing. No hard feelings. And I said, you know, it's nothing personal but you really put it on the line, because if Charlie hadn't moved you I was going to have to fire you. By the way he went on up, he ended up being at the Council for Pension Benefit Guarantee, moved from that deputy up. But you know the system works one way but not on my staff.
WEISBERGER: [06:30:06] And maybe he changed, who knows.
JONES JR.: [06:30:07] I doubt it.
WEISBERGER: [06:30:08] You doubt it.
JONES JR.: [06:30:13] [inaudible 06:30:13] He was a ... he didn't change. But Igot a fellow who took seriously the business of, well he ...
WEISBERGER: [06:30:22] Right.
JONES JR.: [06:30:23] You know, I came up in the system whether I was supervisedby it. And the supervision was garbage. I mean, you know, I mean I think the reason I don't edit well and I can't spell, or what like that, is that you know, I recognized right away what supervisors did. Including my beautiful supervisors. She did more than that but how the system worked. I find me and Edith Cook we were a ferocious team. She went right on up, a woman, went up to the top of the shop and I went right on up with her. And ultimately went over to be her equal.
[06:31:02] But when we were a team, I did the substantive, between Edith andBill Evans, on labor-management stuff I was the worker bee and the substantive stuff was me.
[06:31:14] And they would polish the stuff for the next level of whatever. AndEdith could massage something to death. She would come in and she's ... I remember one story, let's just take it too.
[06:31:28] Once we were working on something, it was interagency. And we'd beenthrough a number of drafts. So she came in, she said, Jim, I think we've got it. But I would change only one more thing. She said, I would move so-and-so to here and then such-and-such to there. I said, Edith, I can see your point. Really, it would really improve the flow of things. But I don't think we should.
[06:31:56] She said, why not? I said because we've got to clear this to HEW andif we move that there isn't anything else in here that they can tinker with. So if we leave something like that to tinker with they will make those changes and feel they made a contribution. They won't fool with the substance.
[06:32:16] So a week later she came in my office with the finished document andshe was laughing. She said, you won't believe this. I said, what? She said, you're not going to believe it. I said, come on Edith, what? She said, they did exactly what you predicted they would change and nothing else. It sailed right on through. We were a good team. She was one of my favorite people that died too soon but ... she was a wonderful person. Okay.
WEISBERGER: [06:32:45] Okay. What do you think some of the highlights of your ...
JONES JR.: [06:32:47] Well the highlight was actually, well the first thingthat's a highlight of this outfit was the first ever enforcement action of the anti-discrimination and affirmative action provisions in the executive order. I don't mean the first under the Kennedy-Johnson executive order. I mean the first ever, going all the way back to Roosevelt in 1941. There had never been an administrative hearing aimed at imposing sanctions on a contractor who didn't comply with the government's mandate.
[06:33:29] In other words it was all sound and no substance. Now, that's anoverstatement because the mere fact that you have it, some people will go and do at least, stop doing the real bad stuff, right?
WEISBERGER: [06:33:42] Right.
JONES JR.: [06:33:42] But since, you know, what's the sanction? There had neverbeen any effort to litigate sanctions that I know of. We discovered in the run-up to this. And no administrative enforcement hearings you know, investigatory hearings where the stuff was getting input or facts. But not saying, you violated it, you are being charged with, the end of which we are going to take your contract.
[06:34:14] Before the Kennedy executive order there was no express provisions inthe executive order that said anything about sanctions anywhere.
[06:34:27] I have written elsewhere, an indication that the Kennedy order wasmore serious than any that preceded it was that not only did it mention sanctions, it had a provision providing explicitly for due process hearing. A hearing and determination of guilt of the contractor before imposing the sanctions. And the sanctions spelled out cancellation and termination and blacklisting, which is debarment as possible sanctions. Right?
[06:35:10] Well there is a story about how it happened. I was told, this isstrictly hearsay, nobody's disputed it and if you've read this much this is in the memo I wrote, the first action that went to term was against Allen-Bradley in Milwaukee. N. Lee Allen-Bradley is the first known case. And I didn't choose to litigate that case.
[06:35:39] There was a black publisher of a black newspaper in Milwaukee who Inever met and don't even know if I got his name. Ken Coulter I think was his name. And there was a newspaper, the national association of newspaper publishers, I.e., the black association was meeting in Washington. And Hubert Humphrey was the featured speaker, the vice president. And Lyndon Johnson had this habit of popping in and surprising, you know, interrupt the thing. But who's going to say, you know, they were going to stop for the president.
[06:36:18] So he popped in on this meeting and made a few remarks. And thenopened it, you know, taking questions. This guy, the guy from the back was waving his hand and got his attention, and said, Mr. President, this morning, the vice president spoke and I told him, and he rattled off this litany of horrors against Allen-Bradley and asked him what was the government going to do about it.
[06:36:44] And he babbled. So I ask you, Mr. President, what's the governmentgoing to do about it? And the reports was, this Cliff Alexander, I guess by this time Cliff was Special Assistant to the President. He had been chair of EEOC, well, maybe he was that after [inaudible 06:37:07]. Cliff, all six foot and beautiful brown skin, Harvard, Harvard Law, he was so good looking and confident it was easy to hate him, right, pointed his finger and said, do something.
[06:37:22] Well I got this story in bits and pieces, but at least I got calledin to the boss's office, this is Tom Donahue, this is not Charlie Donahue, the Solicitor of Labor and he said, you should let a debarment notice against Allen-Bradley. I said, what? He said, issue a debarment notice against Allen-Bradley. I said on the basis of what? We don't even have a complaint filed on Allen-Bradley that I know about.
[06:37:49] So I don't know if he told me all of the story but he told me, themessage comes from the White House. And then he said to me, when you took over this job didn't you tell me that you could, maybe, no I don't want to say, that you could close your eyes and just grab any bundle of employer contractors and debar them on noncompliance? I said yeah. He said, now's your chance.
[06:38:14] So we had to go out and do, I had to go out in the shop and we had todraft some rules of practice. There were no procedural moves in the rules. We had to draw up the rules of practice to send them out with the complaint. And we didn't have a, you know, we had no factual, a collection of files of complaint processes and so forth. So we had to come up with, what are you going to be debarring them for? So basically I guess it came from the kind of newspaper reporting things that this Coulter guy had said they were doing. Essentially looked at all of it. They just refused to recognize any obligation for affirmative action. They're stiffing the process.
[06:39:07] So we charged with violation. Right? Now here's the part that makesit so it ... so, the gentleman couldn't be that stupid as a lawyer, could he? I mean there was no definition of affirmative action in the rules and regulations. And I had made a speech to a huge, the largest audience I had ever spoken to. Six hundred lawyers.
WEISBERGER: [06:39:43] October 18th, this is side two of tape one. An interviewbetween June Weisberger and Professor James Jones.
JONES JR.: [06:39:52] Okay. All right then, I had to send three young lawyersout to Milwaukee to build the case. You got to the ground-
WEISBERGER: [06:40:01] Get your evidence.
JONES JR.: [06:40:03] And get all sorts of other stuff that are out there,including going to the plant and get their records and stuff like that, which we could in fact demand and do.
[06:40:12] The procedural provisions were drafted by that Saul Robinson who hadgone to Yale Law School. He had also clerked, I think, for the Supreme Court of California and had worked in, you know, something ... so he had some creds for doing this kind of stuff. So Saul worked with a woman lawyer named Marilyn Rose who was a senior lawyer on my staff. Had worked for the NRRV and had done administrative trial stuff. And a kid who was waiting to hear from the bar exam as to whether he'd passed the bar. He had graduated from the University of Michigan Law School. And at my first real professional job in Chicago, on the Wage Stabilization Board, when I talked about the boss of the boss that urged me to go to law school and told me to come to this law school, very famous Samuel Edes. That a law firm that was Edes and Rosen and Rosen was Claire Rosen, his wife. They had one child, Nik Edes, and this kid that had come to work for me was Nik Edes. How about that, it was a generational connection.
[06:41:42] Nick and Saul and Marilyn went to Milwaukee and spent six monthstrying to dredge up all the information they could. A lot of it was statistical analysis and profile and who these people hired and what they did and did not do.
[06:41:59] And so, by the way, by this time, Milwaukee was in ferment. There wasa lot of stuff going on over there. Father Groppi, the late Father Groppi, was leading the charge against discrimination and generally against Allen-Bradley specifically. There was some, the Black Commandos, that sort of, behaving almost like look-alike Panthers. They were marching and picketing in the street. And then there was an organization, a brand new organization of Hispanics, that little neighborhood, because it turns out that the factory was in what was a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. You know how neighborhoods, segregated neighborhoods, tend to grow. People network, you know, when you come to town you tend to go to live where you know you can live and so there was a large Hispanic community surrounding the plant.
[06:43:03] And the bus system from all over Milwaukee would somehow come prettyclose to this area of Milwaukee for the industrial jobs. And they put together all of this stuff. Well, they were intransigent. So we go up to the point that ...
WEISBERGER: [06:43:31] No alternative.
JONES JR.: [06:43:34] [crosstalk 06:43:34] but to go to trial, unless you'regoing to, if they're going to laugh about the system anyway. So Charlie sent for me one day and said, you've got to go to Milwaukee and try the Allen-Bradley case. And I said, what? He said, you've got to go out there and try the case. And I said, Charlie, those kids have been breaking their hearts over this stupid case for six months, out there doing whatever. And all the kids in the shop, we work them to death, we pay them no overtime, there is no overtime anything, they get, you know.
[06:44:05] He said, yeah but, you know, this is the first-ever case in thehistory of the executive order. I said that's all the more reason they ought to try, they ought to be allowed to try their case. He said suppose I order you to? I said, suppose I quit? And since he knew I didn't play, he chuckled, he said, well, he told me a story that back in the World War II days or shortly after that, he ended up trying a case because his boss, his supervisor was ordered to try a case that he thought Charlie and them ought to try and the boss's boss wouldn't relent, so he quit. So Charlie tried the case.
[06:44:45] So he said, see this is a happenstance on how things work out wellthat you don't know about then, he said, okay, I'll tell you what. Your shop, it's your call, you can try it any way you want to, but you got to be there. Because Bill Wertz won't forgive us if something went wrong out there and you weren't there. Which is another way of telling you, you can delegate authority but you can't duck responsibility.
[06:45:13] So I had to stop what I'm doing. I got three lawyers out there, I gotanother 11 lawyers doing stuff, and I got a deputy [inaudible 06:45:21] so I packed my grip and went to Milwaukee. There was a big convention of some sort going on, so they had a central housing place, because the hotels and things. So they sent me over to the south side to a motel. And I got over there and they refused to rent me a room. I pulled my government credentials and told them that is against federal law and you will rent me a room or you will get sued. So they gave me a room.
[06:45:48] I was being driven by Nik Edes cause we had to go - the staff wasdowntown at another hotel. So we went in to the place, put my, just unpacked luggage, put it down, took my briefcase, went to the toilet, got back in the rental car and went back downtown.
[06:46:04] Got back downtown just in time that somebody else was giving up aroom in the hotel where the rest of the staff was. They were just, they hadn't checked out yet. I said, Nick, go right down to the checkout lane and get that room. Don't listen to any nonsense from people. Say we get it or the rest of us move out. Or whatever. He didn't have to, he got it. So then we got back in the car, went back out there and checked out. The people, I'm staying in the room. They wanted to charge us for staying in the room. I wasn't paying. They accused us of going in there and having a homosexual liaison. We were in there maybe five minutes at most. I don't know how long it takes to urinate, right?
[06:46:50] So anyway, we went back downtown. Here's the government's enforcers,coming to town to take the contracts from the leading, from the largest employer in the city, on discrimination. The Civil Rights Act has passed. The public abominations part of it has passed. I mean, the Heart of Atlanta, maybe, had even been litigated. And over there in the ...
WEISBERGER: [06:47:14] South side.
JONES JR.: [06:47:15] And I'll bet you, you go over there now, you'll havetrouble. Milwaukee is a Jim Crow town.
WEISBERGER: [06:47:23] I've heard it described [crosstalk 06:47:25] segregatedNorthern city.
JONES JR.: [06:47:29] [crosstalk 06:47:29] Now it's been reported by researchtypes, you know, not, this ain't just ...
WEISBERGER: [06:47:33] A label slapped on it.
JONES JR.: [06:47:34] That's right, they've got data that's saying this town isbad. Okay.
WEISBERGER: [06:47:40] So there you are in Milwaukee supervising.
JONES JR.: [06:47:43] All right and I'll tell you what. I let the kids try thecase. We knew, obviously, I trained most of these kids. Who knew anything about this stuff but those of us that started in legislation and sort of pass it on. And so we were on the same page, basically. We, when I say this staff worked all the time, we socialized together, we were always what if-ing, we were anticipating and stuff. And the kids were motivated, and so I said "Okay, let's see. Saul, you a senior, since you're the counsel for civil rights. Marilyn was the deputy, and Nick is just an associate, so you're the lead counsel" and we figured how we going to present this stuff, and so forth. When they had to run copies and stuff, I was doing grunt work as well as when we were talking out how we would strategy and so forth like-
WEISBERGER: [06:48:50] And the strategies.
JONES JR.: [06:48:50] And we tried this in the federal courtroom, and this wasin the early days of the executive order, so provided for a tripartite panel, essentially of arbitrator mediator types. And the legendary Dick Mittenthal was one of the tripartite to begin the arbitrating. One of the guys whose names I can't remember had been on our NLRB and he went on to be administrative law judge. There were three of them.
WEISBERGER: [06:49:24] Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR.: [06:49:29] I sat in the back of the courtroom [inaudible 06:49:31]that separates it. Before the bar, the public sits back there...in the jury room and everything. But before the bar, with the benches up there in the lawyer's tables or something. And they'd set up a press table in there because this case is hot as a firecracker in July. The press was all over it and the TV couldn't get in, right? So they had a press table where the press guy sat at the table. And Herman Grant, who had been [inaudible 06:50:10] attorney when I was hired, as a matter of fact was the first one to interview and recommend that the department hire me in Chicago. And he came up to Chicago to sit through this 3-day trial. There'd never been one. And there's nobody had any experience [crosstalk 06:50:26]....He was the litigator. Everybody knew who Herman was in this region because he sued most of them for about every standards violation [inaudible 06:50:35].
[06:50:37] So Herman sat with me [inaudible 06:50:38]. And the kids would[inaudible 06:50:40] and they would break for a consultation and come back and hover around and then go back. And Larry Wooden, he was a senior partner in the Quarles and Brady and a really young lawyer [inaudible 06:50:58]. Oh, Father Groppi and them got a lawyer and they filed a motion to intervene. And the tribunal had to consider the motion. We filed a motion in support. The tribunal ruled against us and them. And directed me to put the witnesses on as part of the government's case. I almost died. I don't even know these people! They're up there talking about quotas! The last thing I want in my case is some quota crap.
[06:51:34] But, 2:00-3:00 in the morning we're interviewing Father Groppi andLarry Frinn and another kid whose name is Ariano something-or-other, he had a Spanish name. He had recently been elected leader of the Spanish Navy....charming. He was a kid, by the way. So I had to split up the lawyers, you know it's the middle of the night. We're interviewing these....and they're going to be put on tomorrow morning in the court. I sat with each of the lawyers that was interviewing at the start of the interview to impress upon the witnesses: This is what the government is going to put you on for. This and only this. Answer as honestly as you can. And as precisely the questions that we put. Don't wander off into anything else. Once we rest [inaudible 06:52:40]. And if the defendant's lawyer decides to cross-examine you, you're on your own. You can say anything you want to on his turn.
[06:52:56] So I made that very clear and then we got together after they weregone home and went through this drill about the narrowness of what we're trying to do here. Don't go fishing for anything else. These are the questions. And they say, "Well who's going to examine these witnesses?" "Who's going to put them on?" I said, "I was going to put on so-and-so and Marilyn's going to put on so-and-so and Nick.....[inaudible 06:53:36]" it had fallen to him to interview Groppi. And I said, "And you're going to put on Groppi." He said, "I don't need interviewing! And beside, I'm the boss, I don't work." But, whatever. At any rate, I think part of the shock to all of them was the fact that this ain't the way you do it in Washington. If it's high-drama the boss is going to suck it up and I sat in the back of the rail. Didn't address the tribunal at all. They addressed the tribunal, you're the government's lawyer. I'm the boss, but you're the government's lawyer. Right? I reckon.
[06:54:19] At least that counts, obviously my name is....the complaint is overmy name because in the rules, et cetera, I'm the prosecutor. The associates [inaudible 06:54:32] and civil rights. So that's the way it went. And they tried it and....don't hold me to the specifics, which one of them did what, but anyway....the senior counsel made the greatest mistake in the world. Firstly, [inaudible 06:54:52] don't ask questions the witness you don't know what they're going to say. And the second one is, don't try to make a man of the cloth a liar over whether the date was the 18th or the 17th.[inaudible 06:55:04] his memory...some ticky tacky....
[06:55:09] That can't do anything but damage your case. There were people whowere sitting in the courtroom who could get in for seats, who were in the audience. At some point the audience was giggling when Gooding was cross-examining our witness. This little boy, who was the Hispanic kid, he was riot. He was a great witness. He was funny and sort of sharp. And his responses. He made this senior lawyer look like a damn fool. How do you....because I was there! I was over there. I did this. I mean, my people....anyway. The thing they say is, "How on Earth do you prove a case when you don't have a definition?" Well, my take on this is good old-fashioned Wisconsin law in action lawyer. Didn't have a label for it then. [inaudible 06:56:23] lay this crowd stuff and cram it into a concept. But we went to the ground. This people claim they don't understand, that this is unconstitutionally vague, blah blah blah blah blah. What about the class of the contractor in the [inaudible 06:56:41] subject to the same thing? We went to our regional people and got names of senior folk who are contractor representatives. I subpoenaed them I guess. We put on their understanding of the rules of what affirmative action required.
[06:57:02] Now, what was the basis of it? At the beginning, the governmentturned affirmative action over to the private sector. In something called Plans for Progress. [inaudible 06:57:17] they came in put all this crap together....by the way, still in the rules. All that outreach stuff? That was what affirmative action was at the beginning. And who came up with this? Corporate America.
WEISBERGER: [06:57:32] Oh, because they could live with that easily.
JONES JR.: [06:57:34] Well, they were going to cheat on that, too, but it didn'thave much of a....what was the problem? Exclusion of the people from the net. You aren't looking for incompetent folk, you're looking for folks that are in your labor market area who have the qualifications of jobs you're looking for. Well, where are you looking? Are putting in white want ad? You going to the white schools? You go to the schools that have got no minorities, right? So the business of outreach....it lives today. I get mail all the time. I know what people are sending me stuff telling me about a job. They got their universe of: This is what we did. All these black folks that are professionals [inaudible 06:58:16] and whatever, we send them personnel notices to get on their networks. Which raises another question about my friend next door [inaudible 06:58:29]. Targeting outreach was somehow a problem with affirmative action enforcement. God, that's the longest standing thing that we've got, right?
[06:58:41] Anyway, so all these people with bad witnesses and their owntestimonies saying they would do none of this. They thought it was unconstitutionally vague and unconstitutional and they weren't going to comply. What they had was friends and relatives. A recommendation, and all...we dug out all that [inaudible 06:59:05] hype....some referral is somebody who works there. Well, if you don't have nobody who looks like me that works there, how you going to get into the mix? One of those things that when I talked about...you talk about my about my network in the Chicago....one of the guys that was the first black professional [inaudible 06:59:21] it was an electrical engineer. He worked for them. They didn't put him on, fortunately and I don't think I've ever seen Dave since we left Chicago, but I knew who he was.
[06:59:36] Another highlight. The last day of the hearing, before we recessedfor deliberation for the [inaudible 06:59:43]. There was a break about something, I forgot what it was. I was sitting back in the bench. And three judges were somewhere, deliberating. And the press guy came up and says, "Excuse me." I said, "Yes." He said, "You're with the government, aren't you?" I said, "Yeah." He said," I understand Mr. Jones is has been in attendance at these hearings. Could you point him out to me?" And I laughed my mischievous laugh. I said, "Yes. I'm Mr. Jones." He'd been looking at me for 3 days. You see, this is trap of unconscious racism. The trial team is breaking to consult...they're obviously consulting with this white lawyer that's the chief trial lawyer for this region. I don't know what they do that's sitting next to him...he is. But, couldn't be Mr. Jones because Mr. Jones is higher up the picking order than this chief lawyer. By the way, this guy the reporter had actually talked to me long-distance on the phone in Washington. Since I sound different on the phone...I hadn't said anything publicly in the meetings. That goes to something else. I used to dress like the chauffers in Washington when I went to Capitol Hill as the Secretary's lawyer. When the hearings were over, I'd take the briefing books and dump them in the limo and go and stand where the chauffers are. And Washington press....
WEISBERGER: [07:01:20] Never caught on.
JONES JR.: [07:01:21] Never caught on. I don't even know....you couldn't havetelevision in the committee rooms. And they'd be in there scrambling trying to take notes...and whether they would get a good view to see who was at the table and how they were introduced. And if you were the media feed....one of the advantages....Old Bob Taylor was there[inaudible 07:01:51] He was a big, old black guy who was assistant council to Vice President Lyndon Johnson and first council of the President's committee or something....and this other little dude just dripping....I mean, why did he bring his chauffer in? I guess he's carrying the books. See, and I would disappear, they would never think of....even though by time I was a counsel for labor relations I had been vetted, but see when I was associate solicitor. But when I was just a counsel for labor relations in general legal service in the legislation division, I had not been publicly disclosed. So I'd go [inaudible 07:02:43] up there with the chauffers and the chauffers would take their caps and they'd stick them under their coat. It's always hurt me a little bit, to see them.
[07:02:56] Top-level jobs that most black men had in government for years andthey were ashamed of them. Which says something.
WEISBERGER: [07:03:10] You have to, for the records, say something about theoutcome [crosstalk 07:03:13].
JONES JR.: [07:03:12] We win the case.
WEISBERGER: [07:03:12] That's what I wanted you to say that...
JONES JR.: [07:03:16] People said, "How could you?" I said,"We won the case."These people couldn't say they were the only mid-western contractor that didn't understand what their obligations were under affirmative action. They had all these other people were living by without objection. Though, how they were doing is a different question because the standards, and I can say this since I wrote them, doesn't mean you achieve. It means a good-faith effort to achieve the objective. I've written somewhere, that's just sophisticated plagiarism. I'd figured if a good-faith bargaining had been in the national relations act since 1935 was unconstitutionally vague then a good-faith effort to comply with your affirmative action obligation wasn't unconstitutionally vague. And I have preached across this nation, without much recognition. It's a process. Sandra Day O'Connor gets it. But she doesn't know where it came from.
WEISBERGER: [07:04:26] What else would you point to during those years?
JONES JR.: [07:04:29] We had 8 cases going at one time. 8 [inaudible 07:04:32]cases going. The only other one that I can recall that went to trial was a humongous one, was against the Bethlehem Steel. And it was the Sparrow's Point facility was the target and it had 35,000 employees just at Sparrow's Point. This is another case I didn't choose to litigate. I got called to boss' office. He said [inaudible 07:04:57] and I said, "Oh, are you kidding? You gotta be kidding!" He said, "You know, who's done the study as to the extent to which the government can do without the steel production of one of its top 3 producers?" So you realize we don't have the facility for just de-bar a company for one facility. The government doesn't contract with a facility, it contracts with the corporate entity. This is what Charlie said, "Get the hell out of my office."[inaudible 07:05:42].
[07:05:41] It turns out that Lyndon was jaw-boning on inflation and he wasjaw-boning the contractors to keep the lid on prices, and steel particularly. Bethlehem broke ranks and increased the price and he was livid. He sent an order to every agency. Whatever you've gone pending against this company, go. So we had this...there were a bunch of black steel workers, by the way. It embarrassed the labor department. They had to take it to the labor department. Because the government was down at Newport News doing some mediation stuff with the shipyards. The lead person in that was the EEOC and the labor department was just sort of a tag-along. And these steel workers, they were standing around with these picket signs with the labor departments saying, "What the hell are y'all doing way down there in Newport News? We are right down the road from you and we got all these problems and y'all aren't doing anything for us." And so, that got that case.
[07:06:57] I remember once I was going out the back door to lunch, to the picketline and somebody said, "Hey Jim!" One of the staffers from Labor, "Jim! What are you going to do to get these pickets away from the labor department's door?" I said, "Are you kidding? Hard as I worked to get them here?"
[07:07:14] They were never certain that that wasn't true. I had absolutelynothing to do with it. I wasn't involved in it.
[07:07:21] So that was a big one. We had 6 lawyers on that tied up and I didn'thave but 14 lawyers. That's one case, that's 6 lawyers. One of them was detail... two of them were detail from someplace else. So it was 4 of mine and 2 others. We had Pullman Standard. Tim can roll a bearing. Bethlehem Steel. Allen-Bradley. Enos Bagg. And I can't think of another. And some of these people who represented...one of them was represented by Charles Horski who had been White House Counsel. Pullman Standard, I believe, was represented by Clifford and Miller. And I had a kid, no I guess that was [inaudible 07:08:06] case. One of my kids had one of these cases, I can't remember, and he had a hearing problem. It was a young lawyer with a hearing aid Roland Wilder one of the other big-time law firm...all these firms against my kids were big-time law firms.
WEISBERGER: [07:08:26] Well, it was a big-time company you're talking about.
JONES JR.: [07:08:27] Well, that's true. One of these guys was called DickHosfelt was his name. He was a lawyer. Roland Wilder went on to be an associate counsel for the teamsters, by the way. But Roland was a lawyer and this guy called me up complaining about Roland. And I listened to him for a while and when he finished I said, "Mr. Hosfelt, as far as you are concerned, Roland Wilder is the United States Government." And I slammed the phone down. It's the only time he ever talked to me. He then tried to go to the solicitor, I'm told. The solicitor said, "You're going to have to deal with Jim Jones. That's his job." He went to the Secretary of Labor [inaudible 07:09:10]. So he finally dealt with Roland Wilder. And when it was all over he had all this praise about Attorney Wilder. I think maybe the word went around that the system [inaudible 07:09:22].
[07:09:27] The steel workers had a separate law firm. And the black workers thatdidn't trust the government had NAACP Inc firm. Robert Belton, who was the....Belton was the lawyer for the Inc firm. All of them were suspicious of us. As a matter of fact, the Belton people we got cooperation from them. When we would close up at the end of the week, starting in the weekend. Belton, he had to go back to New York. He used to leave, he'd say, " Well Jim, I'll be suing ya." Since we were attacking seniority, the steel workers were against us. And they had, they might have had [inaudible 07:10:14]. That went on forever. Finally, Charlie took it out of my shop. Called me in and said, "Look. You have limited trial experience in you and your people and this is going to be....
WEISBERGER: [07:10:33] Humongous issue.
JONES JR.: [07:10:34] Humongous. By the way, the 6 lawyers I had on it, the leadlawyer had tried murder cases. But he didn't know....he was a trial lawyer in the court
WEISBERGER: [07:10:47] But labor law is different.
[07:10:50] ....using on October 18th 2004. For a conversation between JuneWeisberger and Professor James Jones. We're talking about the period of 1967-69 when he was associate solicitor in the Department of Labor.
JONES JR.: [07:11:06] Well, we were continuing with 1) the affirmative actionissue and Allen Bradley, but it took months before that thing was finally....there's an appellate probably goes to the Secretary of Labor and there's agreements and so...and they worked out a settlement. And I thought that essentially...and Allen Bradley, we had won the battle and lost the war because they....
WEISBERGER: [07:11:30] Because of the settlement.
JONES JR.: [07:11:31] Because of the settlement. And I didn't find...I get someinput...about the effect of that case in that community.
WEISBERGER: [07:11:47] You're talking about the effect of the settlement in thecommunity.[crosstalk 07:11:50]
JONES JR.: [07:11:50] Teaching a course over in the...giving a lecture ineduction to some graduate students and I made this statement that we won the battle and lost the war. And student contradicted me. I was taken aback [inaudible 07:12:13] and then he...[inaudible 07:12:13] I've forgotten his name, but he was a young fellow who led the Hispanic group. He was no longer a young fellow. He had grown up and matured. He was gone on to school, he was in graduate school. And he said that that case changed the profile in the Milwaukee since we took out this major outfitter all the little people started to [inaudible 07:12:30]. A tremendous benefit to [inaudible 07:12:33] down there.
WEISBERGER: [07:12:35] That's a very interesting post-script because we oftendon't hear what really happened.
JONES JR.: [07:12:42] He said, "Bad as Milwaukee is, you have no idea and youhave to appreciate...."[inaudible 07:12:48]....all sorts of job activity has changed in the whole community.
WEISBERGER: [07:13:01] And it's not that I've done any statistical analysis, butthat doesn't surprise me that the real ending is not what it may appear to be.
JONES JR.: [07:13:12] Anyway, it went back and forth [inaudible07:13:14]....secretary sort of sold us out, but, you know. It was the mediation, kind of, error and when you take what you can get. I don't know who monitored later on and so forth...anyway.... the Bethlehem Steel thing, they delivered....we were making the demands for information. [inaudible 07:13:36] we're stiffing this. And this was, they were making this demand in a hearing. And they were ordered to comply. And so the weekend I saw before they trial, they "complied", they delivered to my office a mound of IBM cards 6 feet by 3 feet by 3 feet. Little boxes. And no computer tape to get the information out with. And this kid who knew how to try murder cases was also a bloody genius among other things, I always reckoned he would demonstrate that. He went to Howard Law School. He finished in the bottom half of the class. He was one of 3 people that passed the bar the first time around. He went into the military and then...did you know Mary Wilburn? This is Mary's little brother, Jeff Nelson. He's retired now. He's lightning bright. He figured out and broke the damn code.
[07:14:37] This is early days of computer and we were able to milk that datastuff for sufficient data to put a case on. And Charlie took me off the case because I was going to hang 'em. Charlie knew I was going to hang 'em, too. I had them convicted out of their own mouths of lying to the Federal Government about the status of segregated housing and facilities, see? They had live-on-the-premises housing and they had it segregated. And they filed a form saying they didn't. Violation of 18 USC 10001.[inaudible 07:15:17] face of material breach of the contract, so I'm holding that. And then we milked this...we got enough out of this so we put a picture plus the testimony of the black guys and put together the picture of their process in the foundry. And how they had structured the job so they had the intentional discrimination against black and no way [inaudible 07:15:40] could claim that that wasn't what it was. And since we didn't had 18 departments and we only had busted out the stuff in 1, we were going to make the claim that all the rest of them were just like this and put the burden, I though, shift the burden to them to prove that they weren't. Which was a good tactic. This is the model. And the rest of them are as bad or worse. And then put a live witness to say that and then let them squirm.
[07:16:07] This had turned into the dimensions of....Charlie was bright he had asense of where I was going. He said, "Old down and dirty's going to nail it to the wall." Let the tribunal say 'no' on the base of this record, how are they going to explain to people that a criminal violation ain't worth breaching their contract, so. They didn't want that. The word on the streets was that this stuff that we were doing, not that case, but another one I'll get to in a minute...was costing Humphrey the blue-collar vote. So the government obviously didn't want that stuff....the democratic administration didn't want to exacerbate the....the construction workers and everybody was mad at the government because of the affirmative action stuff, the union [inaudible 07:16:54] encroaching on seniority.
[07:16:57] So, Charlie pulled it out and he had great...and he said, "Look,you're on demand. Too much of your staff tied up on one thing. You can't do other stuff, you've got all these other cases. I'm going to put together a trial team under Bill Farther." Bill Farther is a senior trial lawyer. He also was a [inaudible 07:17:19]. He was going to cry it to death at [inaudible 07:17:21]. [inaudible 07:17:23] We'll keep Ellisburg and the woman who came out of litigation, Burnie Dunous wife. She can stay on it, we'll put some other people and we'll free up Chuck Nelson and the other people can go back to doing....see Chuck was already offered a job at a DS14 promotion at HUD and Charlie wouldn't release him. So he couldn't go to the other thing. So he released Nelson to go to his promotion and give me back your two other staff people and then you can fill that slot that Nelson has left. Well how can I say, "Charlie...I'm going to ditch you actually." I can't say, "No way, I'm going to resign [inaudible 07:18:15] he's got a perfectly legitimate reason that's a non-throwing-the-case reason."
[07:18:21] I was out here 3 or 4 years before that case ultimately finished. Wewon it. They won it, but they had briefs and counter-briefs and I got some of the file and I said, "[inaudible 07:18:31] going to try everything." The labor department was meticulous in that trial and they're considerably...[inaudible 07:18:31] justice department.
[07:18:31] The other thing that happened. We were involved in the Crown Zelibar189 Paper makers case. That was basically triggered by the labor department. That was another one that we got forced into doing something about because they had this little stop order that would say, "Don't spend any more new money with these people, we got these problems with their compliance, until you hear from and clear it with labor." Well, Crown Zelibar sued the Secretary of Labor and Eddy Sylvester, who was the head of the OFCC...POFCC it was then.... Right around the holidays, 3 months after I took over the job. I said, "I oughta be fired. I take up the job in 2 months, I get my clients enjoying before Christmas." And so that's to say, "Shucks, I'm thinking of disobeying so I can go to jail for disobeying the...just think of how my stock would go up in the civil rights community, I'd be like Martin Luther King. I refused to comply with a government order that was discriminatory..."
[07:19:55] What Crown Zelibar realized after they won in lawsuit that they hadpushed the government in a corner. They didn't have any choice but to back off and eat crow or take him to the man. Maximum John [inaudible 07:20:07] ruled against us and said, "That's a sanction..you can't impose it without due process. You've got to take them through the procedure." Well, faced with that, I don't know about [inaudible 07:20:20]. And the union had issued the threat that if they...if the company...negotiate to impasse. The company imposed the changes in the seniority things, the paper makers. They had to give them 10 days notice to strike. So they gave notice to strike, they're going to strike against the government's....propo...and I said, "Well, uh...that's a great...the Justice Department...[claps]...we're finally"....they went in through District Court sooner.
[07:20:50] First time they went into court, they trashed my part of thecomplaint. It was a local 36....sheet metal workers in St. Louis involving the St. Louis Arch. We had a case there and it went to court on that cause I kept campaigning for litigating specific enforcement of the persons in the contract. Well, the first time out, when the District Court judge threw out the Labor Department's [inaudible 07:21:18], then the Justice Department didn't appeal. I was livid, but this was in the early days well then we had so little Title VII settlement law. And the Justice Department got [inaudible 07:21:29] for [inaudible 07:21:31] they had big, little. So they were anxious to make some laws. So if I were flipping hats, I can see why they didn't want to take on this issue...they're out there flying blind. Well I'd been flying blind so often, what the hell? Go to court and fight and you either win or you lose. If you lose, that tells you something. So with my arguments...what do you mean, a memo? Get from the contracting people that specific enforcement cases. That's all this is. Take out the race thing and just like any other non-performance. Well finally, they got this stripe about the face, and well, they went on, and they won a case by the way, and it's a case that the people have ignored. The Eighth Circuit has a remedy, an affirmative action remedy you won't believe. One of the three judges was Blackmun, who went to the Supreme Court. I kept trying to push our case to the Supreme Court.
[07:22:25] We got somebody up there that's already gone this far. Most of mycolleagues, including you, have read carefully my writings and this is all written someplace. I mean, I take the truth on the whole enforcement thing.
[07:22:37] Anyway, Atlanta, when they got 189, that was very sexy. The union'sgonna strike, force the government. They went out on Title VII and the executive order thing, tossed us in defense with a legitimate contract, on strike, the government and my notes were gonna drop it down the toilets, too.
[07:22:59] After all, Title VII waived that anyway. So one had gone away. Andone ended in the Fifth Circuit. It was one of the pillar cases for present effects of past discrimination. There was quarrels, Local 189 achievement of paper makers and Crown Zelibar. That's basically our case.
[07:23:22] Force came from my clients. So those cases start to be pillars. Andalso, the interface of the relationship between a Title VII remedy for mass systemics, an executive order of affirmative action. It sort of got boiled in. It's obviously that the federal courts had jurisdiction to order such affirmative action as maybe necessary to effectuate the purposes of the law.
WEISBERGER: [07:23:55] Well it sounds like these were very action packed yearsbut very satisfying because,
JONES JR.: [07:24:01] They were mind blowing. They were also debilitating. I ...other things going on in my life caught me at the same time. I don't know where to keep them. I guess we've been through the housing thing, the hospital thing. All this was, switching jobs, I left out some of that.
[07:24:20] They promoted me to a job and as a white boy in the structure it tooka long time. A guy with a PhD thought he should have gotten the job. He didn't say a word when that white boy had been given the job before that had a background like mine. But not quite as good.
[07:24:37] But when I got it, he, his misbehaved. All these things takesubstance out of you. The guy would have his secretary call me and get me on the phone. I'm his damn boss, have me waiting till he gets around to it. Which, he did it a couple of times. He'd call, I would hang up. I'd say, tell Mister [Loren 07:25:01], when he's on the phone I'll talk to him. Or send me a memo.
WEISBERGER: [07:25:08] Maybe this is a good time to stop because we're just onthe verge of your, of the interest in Madison about you and things like that.
JONES JR.: [07:25:22] Well we are, you see, we got a change in the administration.
WEISBERGER: [07:25:26] Okay, yeah.
JONES JR.: [07:25:27] There's a huge chapter involving George Shultz.
WEISBERGER: [07:25:31] Okay, could we save that for the beginning of next time?
JONES JR.: [07:25:35] That can be a tape.
WEISBERGER: [07:25:36] Yeah.
JONES JR.: [07:25:37] Because it's the run-up to the real affirmative actionenforcement, which is the [crosstalk 07:25:41].
WEISBERGER: [07:25:41] Yeah, yeah and I don't think we ought to rush that 'causethese are key events.
JONES JR.: [07:25:46] It may take two tapes. Well, yeah it's in the book but,you know, book may never get published. This'll be in the archives somewhere.
WEISBERGER: [07:25:55] Here.
TURNER: [07:25:57] This concludes the sixth interview of the oral history. Theseventh interview conducted on October 25th of 2004 begins now.
WEISBERGER: [07:26:05] Day the 25th of October 2004. This is June Weisberger andI'm sitting in Professor James Jones' office and we're continuing our conversation about his career, particularly the last couple of years when he was in the Department of Labor. And we're up to the point where there's a change in the administration of the presidency.
JONES JR.: [07:26:31] Okay, you know when administrations change, first of all,in the run-up to the change almost nothing happens, nothing new. Politicians are busy out campaigning. And the real pros who make the government go are not about to do anything novel, right?
[07:26:59] Because, they've gotta deal with, stay on their side of theadministration not making policy decisions. So things tend to sort of settle out a little bit and slow down. But one of the things that happened in my tour of government duty and when I got up to the super grade level where you had a chunk of it that you were, quote, in charge of, you had to prepare a briefing book for the newcomer.
[07:27:36] Which would have all the things that somebody new needed to knowabout your piece of the pie, right? So, when the new administration came in, having been through this and seen parts of it before, I knew we needed to get together a briefing book. They talk about the transition teams. And I'm sure these briefing books are part of what the transition people get.
[07:28:04] Because as you can see, somebody coming in new, if there are thesevery thorough briefing books some may have been passed on and upward gives the new administration as sense of just what they've got to ...
WEISBERGER: [07:28:24] And I'm assuming 'cause I don't really, I've never seenone, I've never really talked to someone that has been in the process that these are really legitimate briefing books, that they're not skewed in any way. 'Cause this is the career grades that are producing them.
JONES JR.: [07:28:43] Basically. There's some people, no matter what you try todo, that will try to tilt stuff. It's dangerous because well, first of all, when the people come in they're suspicious of you, no matter how straight laced you are. If you try to play games and they catch you, they will hang your head and properly so.
[07:29:08] But most of it, you know, a professional wants to know guidance frompeople 'cause sometimes this is cutting edge stuff. You don't wanna have somebody hand 'em a hand grenade with the pin pulled, they don't even know it's explosive, right? So basically yeah, they are.
[07:29:29] They have fundamental stuff in there that are referenced to. Youdon't talk completely down to 'em. Basically what you give 'em is highlights and then trouble spots. And then places where policy is not clear but action needs to be taken. So, something needs to be decided to move this from A to B.
WEISBERGER: [07:29:51] Right, and something needs to be decided sooner ratherthan later in the new administration.
JONES JR.: [07:29:57] Depends on, that's part of the briefing too. They're realsophisticated. You can't write everything down. Sometimes you might sit down with 'em, say, this has been festering for a while. If you take it and you don't do anything about it, you're courting criticism down the line from various people who are watching.
[07:30:20] If you take it and since it's been around you can sort of discountthe flak you're gonna get and sort of let it sit and if you get flak you can say, well why didn't they do it, it was so hot? You see that go. People at that level have very sensitive jobs. Some of 'emg misuse them. I didn't.
[07:30:41] I don't know whether that reputation was good or bad but thereputation was, you wanna know, ask Jim Jones 'cause he's gonna tell you what you gotta know.
WEISBERGER: [07:30:53] He's gonna tell you.
JONES JR.: [07:30:54] It won't be sugar coated, right? Anyway, so, I prepared abriefing book for a new Solicitor, which was maybe a couple of three ring binders. One of 'em that had core stuff and then the second one would be back up. So if you want more, there was more.
[07:31:17] And also identification of things and people that you need to know.So, in comes this Bill Wirtz for whom I had worked in one form or another for eight years, he came in with the Kennedy administration as Undersecretary and went out as Secretary.
[07:31:38] Charlie Donahue was Solicitor of Labor for the whole time. By theway, when they came in, Charlie inherited me as one of his working lawyers and legislation had some sensitive angles, a little bit sensitive. I can now look backwards 'cause I think at that time I was at the GS-13 level.
[07:32:02] I didn't find out 'til they came in that they brought blackpoliticians in at the GS-13 level. I was really offended when I found out my colleague Howard Jenkins whose wife was a friend of Peggy Goldwater, that was her name. They campaigned for the President. And here Howard Jenkins was a GS-13 lawyer and he had been Professor at Law at Howard University and had all sorts of credentials.
[07:32:33] I was fairly soon up at the GS-13 level and I came from nowhere. God,these guys really got screwed over, right? I don't know how I got off to that thing but, oh, Charlie was a little bit suspicious. And we had a nose-to-nose on something involving secondary black-outs.
[07:32:57] And he said, I wrote that. I'm talking about some old stuff. And Isaid, and I wrote that, which was true. And then we worked through whatever the thing was, and I got the assignment. And I wrote it. It turns out at one point, there were two committee reports. The Democrats, they were majority. And the Republicans that were the minority.
[07:33:22] And there was a minority report and the majority report. And I hadwritten both of 'em. Two different administrations. [inaudible], see. From me, one of my areas and stuff like that.
WEISBERGER: [07:33:39] And a very sticky issue.
JONES JR.: [07:33:40] Oh look, one of the worst ones in the, that and nationalemergency disputes and things like that. Well, with the Landrum-Griffin and stuff we had the whole blackmail picketing. And a lot of the back part of Landrum-Griffin was reform of Taft Hartley. I was up to my eyebrows in all of that.
[07:34:00] But one thing we weren't doing was anything to do with civil rights.That didn't, that came when Johnson came and I guess we went through that.
WEISBERGER: [07:34:07] We did.
JONES JR.: [07:34:09] Well, Nixon comes in and George Shultz who was a Professorof Industrial Relations at University of Chicago. And his young associate, he was a Professor by then, but had been his graduate student at MIT was Arnold Robert Weber.
WEISBERGER: [07:34:27] Your good friend.
JONES JR.: [07:34:28] My classmate in grad. school, right. And when we finishedin Illinois, Arnie went to the Coast Guard 'cause he was in the Korean War. I was a World War Two veteran. I went to work for the Waste Stabilization Board. I was already a vet and not subject to be dragged into that war.
[07:34:51] When the war is over, I end up coming to law school. Arnie goes toMIT and gets a PhD under George. And then they end up teaching together. And so when Shultz came to Washington as the Secretary of Labor, brought Weber as his transition guy. Transition stage for about four years or however.
[07:35:12] Anyhow, George came out of the industrial relations professionalarena, as did Bill Wirtz. They're probably the architects of it. As did Hodgson who succeeded Shultz when Shultz went to the Pay Board went on also as Secretary of State. Anyway, the first week that Shultz was Secretary of Labor, Weber came with him.
[07:35:41] And Weber came into my office and spent half an afternoon talking andchain smoking. It went all over the Labor Department. You know how rumor gets around. Well I tell all this story because I now suspect that I had trouble with the new Solicitor of Labor because of the notion that somehow or other I was connected to his boss.
[07:36:10] The other thing might have been that here I was, at this time I'm aGS-16 Division Chief. And knowing what they had in mind, what they were gonna do, mainly cheat, right? Figured that I had gotten there because I was a political appointee. Somebody had to. Anyway, I found out much, much later, I guess after I came out here to teach that there was another element that I knew absolutely nothing about.
[07:36:38] And that is, some of the Republican politicos, and I suspect it mighthave been the Teamsters Union had put my name in the hopper to be Solicitor of Labor. No politics, nothing. Well, I would suppose then that Larry Silberman must have known who the competition was, and he considered me.
[07:37:07] So he had a bunch of reasons to be suspicious. The other was beforehe got appointed Solicitor, he was a GS-13 Brief Writer over in the bowels of the NORV. He had practiced law in Hawaii with a management firm or something. But in terms of a ...
WEISBERGER: [07:37:25] Broader view.
JONES JR.: [07:37:26] And a profile, here he was one day a GS-13. The next dayhe's got five hundred lawyers and other staff people. He's the Solicitor of Labor.
WEISBERGER: [07:37:35] With a large firm.
JONES JR.: [07:37:36] Right.
WEISBERGER: [07:37:37] A very large firm.
JONES JR.: [07:37:38] That has a hundred and sixty-six statutes to administer,about which he knows nothing. In addition to which, as he said to me at a later date, I'm sittin' on the hand grenades. I got labor relations and civil rights. He said to me much later, the rest of my departments can run themselves.
[07:38:04] You are sitting on the most politically explosive elements that I'vegot under my jurisdiction. And I need somebody whose got political coverage to head your departments. That's what he told me when I asked if he'd give me a leave of absence to teach. He also said that, just what he said, he also said something that I let it go by without saying anything, that if I stayed he was probably gonna have to transfer me out of that office.
[07:38:43] He would replace me with a political person. I was thinkin', manwould you ever get a grossly unimpressive political, unanticipated political surprise just 'cause I'm not a politico. By this time there were these people out there, you know in the other world that for some reason decided I was a good person. That's how my name kept getting put in as if I had a political following or whatever.
[07:39:12] Okay so, the first thing that happens, Larry was busy doing my job.Oh, wait a minute, Jim Hodgson, that's his name, Hodgson was Undersecretary and he had this thing with a budget kind of meeting as they are working out their budget. We didn't have a Solicitor when it first started. The acting Solicitor was busy sucking up, trying to get appointed.
[07:39:40] He was a different man. And he let me go to the budget meeting tomake the presentation for my ... And Hodgson was dismissive of my sounding alarm bells about what was these hand grenades I'm sittin' on.
WEISBERGER: [07:40:00] Right.
JONES JR.: [07:40:04] And I was, it was not so much what I said but my tone wasdisrespectful. I had known him in Industrial Relations and he was in Industrial Relations with one of the major, an active member of a national corporation. I met him and Hodgson at the Harriman House, one of those big retreats on the problems of collective bargaining.
[07:40:32] When they had invited the Assistant Secretary of Labor who declinedthe invitation and suggested they invite me since what he was gonna tell them was what he got from my briefing. He was thinking, you know,
WEISBERGER: [07:40:43] Hear it first hand.
JONES JR.: [07:40:43] Hear it first, they said all right.
WEISBERGER: [07:40:44] You could respond first hand too.
JONES JR.: [07:40:50] And Weber was at that, my working group by the way. Weberwas there and Ben Harriman was the Chair and the head of the Teachers Union in New York and the lawyer for the, it was a real high-powered group. I don't know if I told you, one of these press guys on about the third day, the further we got away from civil rights the more vocal I was.
[07:41:09] He said, where have they been hiding you? I said, in plain sight. Ididn't say in plain sight. I wish I had. Well anyway so, I knew these people. They knew who I was. And Larry was a little bit sensitive. I knew part of it was because Jim Hodgson was mad at me for being disrespectful.
[07:41:31] But Larry was busy tryin' to do my job. So all of a sudden I wasn'tbeing invited to the meetings that were going on as they were shaping policy. I'd be doing some lower level type stuff. Anyhow, a lot of this policy I didn't know was goin' on 'cause I'm out of the loop, right?
[07:41:55] Well one day I get a call that, you know, come down to UnderSecretary office, Hodgson's office right away. So I stopped what I was doin' and got a yellow pad to be sure I had enough to take notes and went down to the office. And I walked in the room and, one of the reasons that I'm not too happy about them banning smoking in the meetings is I could tell from the smell of the place and the look of the ashtrays there was about a three, four hour meeting.
[07:42:38] And as I looked around the room and looked at the faces, I knew whatthe subject matter was. Everybody who had a significant role in civil rights ...
WEISBERGER: [07:42:49] Except one person.
JONES JR.: [07:42:50] Except me was in that room. The new Assistant Secretary,whom I'd never met. Big ol' black guy named Arthur Fletcher was in the room with his staff people. The other thing that, if you get some sense of [inaudible], and once I looked at who was there I got the sense that there was a chill in the place. There was tension in that room.
WEISBERGER: [07:43:22] Yeah, they hadn't rolled out a red carpet, certainly.
JONES JR.: [07:43:24] No, it wasn't. The tension wasn't me. Whatever they weredoin' in there, this was not a happy gathering, right? So I sat down and I don't know, somebody started a conversation. Something about it was fairly apparent they were trying to come up with some civil rights strategies. Well the reason, the catalyst of it is that this Defense Department with Mr. Packard of Hewlett Packard was the Deputy Secretary of Defense to Melvin Laird of Wisconsin.
[07:44:02] Came in office and signed off on some affirmative action plans in thetextile industry that the Labor Department had rejected six generations of proposed plans ago to deal with that problem. And the civil rights people, you know, got word of that, exploded. And their friends on the hill were furious. Labor Department is supposed to be in charge of this.
[07:44:32] Poor ol' George Shultz got kicked in the groin or kicked in the ...
WEISBERGER: [07:44:38] Where-ever.
JONES JR.: [07:44:40] Blind-sided by the Defense Department with its usualarrogant notion of, who the hell is Labor? I don't care what the President's Executive Order says. None of it plays. Well, the political explosion, Kennedy called up poor George and Congressman Ryan and they'd have got killed over there with that other gentleman in Guyana.
[07:45:08] But they called him up and demanded an accounting about the group,the administration selling out civil rights and affirmative action. It was really a political mess, right?
WEISBERGER: [07:45:15] A big one.
JONES JR.: [07:45:15] Yeah and that sort of put some, put some heat on the LaborDepartment. And they were down there trying to figure out where to go to gain some credibility in civil rights. I bet there's someone that said poor old George Shultz had barely sat down in his chair and this explosion, right?
[07:45:46] Oh I never had a face-to-face meeting with George. He was a delegatorand he dealt with, I'm not complaining by the way. Maybe he should have adopted the paratrooper approach and said, did you write this? No. Then go get the person who actually did and bring them here with you. But the other side of that is you can't really supervise more than 5 or 6 people.
[07:46:14] If you think you can do more than that you're kidding yourself,right? Maybe Clinton could but not too many people can handle that many balls in the air. Okay, so whoever said this negative thing about, you know, the program, Hodgson reacted, I think he's smarting about me, my smart mouth about the disaster that he had.
[07:46:41] Maybe he was smarting that I was right, you know what I'm saying. Hewas sitting on this. We have so limited resources we can't even manage the agencies let alone enforce the thing out there. And those cases that we started were still bobbling around, some of 'em, right, the enforcement stuff. But all of this was torn in ferment.
[07:47:12] And Hodgson reacted and said something about left-over Democrats andthe problems that those Democrats didn't solve. Some left. And to his ever-dying credit, Larry Silberman who had his briefing from me said, Jim, you can't level that accusation at Jim Jones. He told me in the briefing session that we had that we had this problem.
[07:47:51] This was the construction industry failure of an affirmative actiontype in creating a Philadelphia Plan. He said, oh, I skipped a piece. Would the Congress - Comptroller General works for the Congress basically even though it's an assignment thing. And they had crashed the Philadelphia, the first Philadelphia Plan for the construction industry affirmative action approach as illegal.
[07:48:23] A letter from Staats to the Secretary of Labor George Shultz dissingthe program, right? It wasn't too, could it be, I think with Mister Shultz, right? So that was and the Philadelphia people who had started that thing had put some pressure on the administration, too. So all of this was spinning.
[07:48:50] Now Arthur Fletcher was from Washington State, at least that's wherehe had migrated to. He was actually, he went to college in Kansas. And he had run for Lieutenant Governor of Washington State as a Republican and came within a hair, an eyelash of winning.
WEISBERGER: [07:49:08] Of winning, yeah.
JONES JR.: [07:49:10] That, Washington I guess runs independently of, so youcould have a Democratic Governor and a Republican Lieutenant Governor. But anyway, he almost won. And it turns out that he had been involved in construction stuff and maybe with some affirmative action kind of, whatever junk they do. So he knew a little bit about the construction industry.
[07:49:34] And he had gone on public television, not public public buttelevision and had an interview when he first came to town as one of the black sub-cabinet people. He said to the world at large that he didn't come to Washington to be the Republican's house nigger. On civil rights, the administration's position was gonna come over closer to his, not the other way around.
[07:50:03] So now he's out there with this big mouth, right? But he's got apresence, at least a sense for the dramatic. And all of this was fermenting around that. So they needed something to get some credibility. So, when, oh, when the construction stuff came up and Hodgson made his sort of back hand reference that I was a left-over Democrat, I guess. Why didn't you fix it before, blah, blah, blah, something like that. Larry Silberman said, don't ...
WEISBERGER: [07:50:44] Not this guy.
JONES JR.: [07:50:45] When we had our briefing he told me if we wanted to goback out there with him, he can fix it. Arthur Fletcher who had never met me but I'm now interpreting, he hears this white lawyer say this black lawyer can fix it. And he takes off. He talks for a good half hour. And I knew everything that they had been discussing in the meeting before I got there.
[07:51:19] And he had the call, I guess. I don't know what they were gonna do.All of which he had dismissed as sophisticated gradualism, he just dumped all of everything they had been talking about. And finally when he finished, he somewhat chastised Jim Hodgson and said, well, Jim, lemme here you can fix it.
[07:51:38] And I outlined the Philadelphia Plan revised, how to put it backtogether. The primary thing saying, as I told Larry, Comptroller General is right on procurement law. If it's gonna have specs, it can't have hidden ones. They gotta be in the bid announcement. You can't pull it out from under the table. That's done on both of the, matter of fact a lot of these were negotiated contracts.
[07:52:11] On the Title VII civil rights stuff, first of all was not his call.Second, he's wrong, I believe. And that's the Attorney General's call ultimately. The first call would be ours, the Solicitor. Then it would go forward, blah, blah. And so I just, specifically told him how you could put it back out there but they have to face the numbers issue.
[07:52:36] There's no way you can get away. You can't play these skew games andthen you go pull the numbers out at the last minute. If you're gonna have 'em, you gotta put 'em up top. And when you put 'em out at the top, they gonna scream. But basically, I can put it together. I didn't say I, I probably said we. I generously shared stuff with my staff.
[07:53:02] We can put it together so it, whatever else they can make it, theycan't make it a quota without redefining what that term has been held to mean. Now I don't have a memo written down or anything, see, 'cause nobody's asked for it. There've been ones that got crashed. The last thing Democrats wanted was for us to go back out there since they didn't want anything in the civil rights to go back out there because the word was it was the President's Executive Order program was costing Humphrey the blue-collar vote. He had seniority by the throat. He had these quotas and stuff for participation for negros, for minorities. That was the only minority.
[07:53:49] And so we just treaded water. Ed Sylvester was one of the moresophisticated dudes I ever worked with. He would ask me and I'd tell him, I'd say, but he didn't want me to write it. He knew that [inaudible] If he wanted an official response he had to ask the Solicitor of Labor, not go around the Solicitor to one of his staff people.
[07:54:12] It had to go formally there. And it would get to me. But he knew fromme if it went that route what he would get back and he didn't want it. So I kept the thing, kept balls up in the air until the election or so. Well anyway, I got through outlining and Hodgson finally said, he was a pipe smoker, well, write it up, write the proposal up. And run it by the Justice Department and HEW.
[07:54:50] If they come onboard, we'll see about going forward with it. It'salmost an accident that the revised Philadelphia Plan, at least me doin' it, got pulled out of the filing cabinet. Because of the suspicion of my young boss through a briefing session that let him know that he knows what he needs to know.
[07:55:11] And by irritating the new Deputy, who makes an opening. And then thisirate black politician that realizes his reputation is gonna be on civil rights and that this whole thing in the Labor Department comes under what they had put in his pile to do.
WEISBERGER: [07:55:33] So, that was a pretty critical meeting.
JONES JR.: [07:55:37] It was. But you know, when I say it was serendipity. Thisis almost accidental.
WEISBERGER: [07:55:45] It had gone on for so long without you.
JONES JR.: [07:55:47] Yeah and who knows what they would have done if it just,and the fact that we in fact had put something together that would work. And when he said run it by HEW and Justice, I knew exactly which lawyers over there were gonna be my counterparts over there.
[07:56:00] David Rose and Sam Barret. And as we, my people, and other the peopleyou deal with who have to be ready for crisis, kind of. Once the thing got dumped on, there were these conversations about, "What if ?, How about ...?, What do you think about ...?" So, there's this sort of thinking through of problems, and I used little files, and putting in sheets of paper in them, got the go-ahead. 'Cause usually, it was, "When do you want it?"
WEISBERGER: [07:56:38] [crosstalk 07:56:38] yesterday.
JONES JR.: [07:56:41] Tomorrow; right? So, I went back up and the younger staff,and we put the damn together in less than two weeks. But, see, we weren't starting from the start. We'd been playing these little ...
WEISBERGER: [07:56:52] Whatever.
JONES JR.: [07:56:55] No, intellectual games or laboratory games. So, we knewwhere the problems were and I sort of assembled a crew of people and say, "You do so and so. You do this, you do that, you do that, you do this." We'll get it passed. Pull it together and give it to Gresham who I had three [inaudible 07:57:24] we he was first became Solicitor he was in the legislation [inaudible] special assistant.
WEISBERGER: [07:57:29] This is side two of a tape that is being made inProfessor James Jones' office, and this is June Weisberger.
JONES JR.: [07:57:40] Well, anyway, when we assembled the group and we got toget this done, so it's a high priority, and I think I pulled about five people off of whatever they were doing to get on this thing, and they knew we had to put a legal memo together, and then we had to skeleton out the administrative process kind of thing, which the people downstairs in the assistant secretary's office, and the office of federal contract implies, the actual people who operate this, had to have some input in. And the interesting thing about it, it wasn't the folks in the Labor Department, there was only one or two of them that were construction people. The construction program, each agency had a construction person that they finance, and that's the way they staff the regions. See, this whole program was terrible in terms of how it was funded.
[07:58:35] So, every guy in St. Louis that was on the Interior Department'sbudget, and a guy in Philadelphia that was on Defense Department's budget, and they were the construction coordinators, where the two guys in Washington sort of coordinating the coordinators. So, we had to get that input, so then we had to figure out about how we're gonna get some about a database for Philadelphia where you get that stuff from. There was no system of collecting of the kind of stuff that you need. And, basically, the Philadelphia Plan Exercise is a labor market exercise.
[07:59:19] You got to determine, what is the qualified pool? Qualified orqualifiable to be expanded. We didn't, trading into people who's apprentices, etc., and people then, who were not in construction, and do the same kind of stuff in the factories and the training schools, and so forth, what's the base? What's the participation rate of minorities in these various trades? Who belongs - you get the Unions, though? Who belongs to the Union? Who's been in that? How many they got? Then, how many jobs are generated by federal contract money going into the Philadelphia [inaudible 07:59:58]? So, you can see how soft the data is, right? But, there were sources. The Philadelphia Executive Board, which the senior government function here is for every agency in that region. And certain information, stuff that they could supply. We had to pull a lot of that stuff together, and ultimately, what we did was I don't know whether I had left when they did this, or if they do it before. We had to have hearings up in Philadelphia, go through the quasi rulemaking though, we had to ultimately eat crow. It was rulemaking. I knew that. I kept trying to tell these people, "Look. He can't make rules." But, iron head decided to sign it anyway.
[08:00:49] But, anyway, so there was a whole lot of things that had never beendone, and we got all this organized. Since I knew the legal stuff that Dave Rose and St. John Barrett, Slim Barrett, they called him, was the number one guy at AGW. Once they said, "If you can get them to go along with it, they will consider it."
WEISBERGER: [08:01:11] No problem.
JONES JR.: [08:01:12] [crosstalk 08:01:12] I said, "Hey, I got those two votesin my pocket. If I put this together like all the critical things that we discussed, and then run it by them, and the process so we get their input, the extension we needed to fine tune, we got all that stuff. And then I got another two programs. I got programs ... Civil Rights, Title VI junk. The good part about the labor relations stuff is that was the Executive Order. I told you, Lou Wallenstein was the head of that, and when Lou would call up and whine, I'd have one question, right, "You stick with procedures. Don't worry about that lawsuit. It ain't going nowhere." I could get onto ...
[08:01:56] Anyway, so that's how it went, and that became the Philadelphia PlanRevised. Put the whole package together, got it cleaned up and ready to go, send it to Justice for really a sort of an ultimate clearance, to meet with the Comptroller General and tell him what the rules were, right, and one of the final leaders in this was Larry Silberman and me, Dave Rose, and ... I'm blanking on the guys' name. The Assistant Secretary of the - Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights. Was Jerris Leonard, a former state legislator of the State of Wisconsin, a lawyer, white. The Assistant Attorney General for Legal Counsel was William Rehnquist, formerly of Milwaukee, Arizona, and so forth. And ultimately, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
[08:03:18] Five lawyers fit it, the final piece, before Larry, and me, andDavid, and Jerris. I don't think Rehnquist went with us to meet with the Comptroller General. And Jerris was the spokesman as civil rights is his thing. The face-off with Elmer Staats, I think his name was, the Comptroller General, and when discussing the detail, they got to the business of his contrary to procurement laws. He fixed that. And then starts that, "It's a violation of Title VII." Jerris Leonard pounded the table and put his ... And said, "It's not. The Attorney General decides what's right with Title VII, and I decide whether the Attorney General, and if you as the Comptroller General decide you wanna go a different direction, the Attorney General is your lawyer." How about that for a 'shut up;' right? Anyway, so Staats has got to worry about Congress and then, but that's to say, "This is the President, and let the Congress do what they're gonna try to do which we'll get to later." In any event, at the end of that meeting, David already had written the transmittal for the Attorney General, and we had the total package ready to do because I understand and this part is hearsay. Oh, by the way, Rehnquist never brought a staffer with him to any of those meetings, and as a matter of law, structure, the assistant Attorney General for legal counsel as the keeper of the President's power, and if there was something wrong with it, he should've spoken up. He had more than one opportunity and never opened his mouth.
WEISBERGER: [08:05:19] And he didn't.
JONES JR.: [08:05:21] Now, and this is the cynical thing, he didn't bring astaffer with him, so I don't know if there's anything anybody gonna bring justice like me that knows this story.
WEISBERGER: [08:05:36] And you probably will never know.
JONES JR.: [08:05:38] Probably, but I can get to another point. No caseinvolving the President's Exective Order, legality has ever been reviewed by the Supreme Court. They refused to hear any of the cases challenging the Executive Order. The only one that's gotten up that had to do with freedom of information stuff and whether their affirmative action plan was an additional insulation that people couldn't get, and that went up to ... GSA vs. Brown, or something like that. And none of them have ever gotten to the Court of Appeals, and no Court of Appeals has ever found the program illegal or unconstitutional.
[08:06:27] The first two specifically on the Philadelphia Plan provides ...we'll get to that. Now, the first one on the Philadelphia Plan provides ... The second one was on an offshoot of it, the Hometown Plan, which is in Boston, and which is another approach to the construction program.
[08:06:45] Anyway, here's a ... I was told that Larry Silberman and GeorgeShultz was supposed to take the Philadelphia Plan Revised to the White House to catch the helicopter 'cause Nixon was at Camp David, and they were late, so they missed the plane. And when they called the President down at Camp David to chat with him, he said, "I don't need to see it. Are you satisfied that it's done what we ...? " And guess what they told him about it? Nixon was a damn smart lawyer by the way. He was third in his class at Duke Law School when they wasn't handing out standing easily. And the reason I know that, the guy who was second in the class was Jeeta Ray, who was an Associate Solicitor in the Labor Department and they were classmates in the Law Journal together and all that stuff. So, anyway ...
[08:07:47] So, we went out there with it, and the quota issue hit the fan, andthe so-called liberal Washington Post. Our press guy worked on the Post guy all night trying to get him not to use the damn term. Just don't pause in the well by labeling it with some legal term. It has a legal meaning, not the one you're gonna use and we'll provide that and they lost. They came out with this. Well, debate's gone downhill since that. It's still going on. And my addressing that technically for the folks that had to approve this was that if the Supreme Court's definition of a quota in three Supreme Court cases, different context, is what that term legally means, it doesn't fit anything in here.
WEISBERGER: [08:08:52] Which is a nice position to be in legally.
JONES JR.: [08:08:55] Well, I mean, the kind of stuff I did as a legislativelawyer who got some Supreme Court guidance, I write back into ... Right?
WEISBERGER: [08:09:03] Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
JONES JR.: [08:09:03] Or as close as I could get it.
WEISBERGER: [08:09:05] Right. You track it.
JONES JR.: [08:09:05] [crosstalk 08:09:05] If I can get it all in there, I trackit, and when you need to write the briefs, all you gotta do is cite the Supreme Court, right? So, the brief, and we got a copy of it over there. We anticipated all the problems, all of the attacks, except one: strict scrutiny.
[08:09:25] I defy you to go back to the literature or the cases between 1954 and1965 and find one that talks about strict scrutiny. There is no such reference to strict scrutiny in Brown, The Brown Project, that I was able to find.
WEISBERGER: [08:09:53] That's very interesting.
JONES JR.: [08:09:54] It was a label that didn't get dragged out and hadvirtually no legal content, except the assertion that strict in form and fatal in fact was what they meant when they applied that test.
[08:10:12] This current Supreme Court has supplied ... This one, 2004, andspecifically, Sandra Day O'Connor has put more content in the strict scrutiny in her opinions. Go back and track different things they finally pieced out. How can you get something that's approve-able? It's a race-specific preference, and what kind of standards do you have to meet since whether it's benign or malignant program, if it's race-preference, or race-specific, you've gotta pass the strict scrutiny test. Well, she's put legs on the strict scrutiny test. And she ultimately, though she maybe doesn't know it, and her approval opinion, Michigan Law School's affirmative action program, cites to an earlier opinion of hers where she specifically cites the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Affirmative Action Guidelines as the proper way to do it.
[08:11:26] So, all the way to yesterday, the Philadelphia Plan Revised exercisehas withstood judicial, legislative, and executive scrutiny. And I say 'executive' because with all the yacking that they did, Nixon administration, and Reagan, and Bush, and in between about affirmative action being a quota and unconstitutional, and they're gonna change with the [inaudible] opinions, they have not changed the fundamentals. And every president, including Reagan, has used the stuff left in place. And if you look at the affirmative action, the Executive Order stuff now, you'll find Executive Order 11246. That's the Johnson version of the Kennedy combination, and it's in place from then to now. Those people, now, aren't about to fool around with it, I don't think 'cause they can look at the amicus briefs in the Michigan cases. The majority of amicus brief are from corporate America saying, "Don't mess with affirmative action. It works fine." Right?
WEISBERGER: [08:12:51] Yeah. And I think that that certainly would be true ifthe construction industry does learn to live with it and maybe found some advantages, even.
JONES JR.: [08:13:01] The construction industry unions, the construction union,and the cops and firemen were the most virulent opponents of affirmative action implementation.
[08:13:12] But, it's sort of interesting enough, the stuff that gets to theSupreme Court has to do with professional school admission, and elite school admission, if we take the last one. They haven't gotten to the job stuff, and then that's gone on its separate way, it seems.
[08:13:28] Now, obviously, when you talk about implementation sub standards, youcan pull the string. This is 'cause the shift of one vote might try to crash the whole thing, but that's tomorrow's.
[08:13:45] That lawyer, the contractors took it to court right away. GeorgeShultz is etched in history. Eastern Contractors' Association vs. the Secretary of Labor, George Shultz. It went to the District Court, they lost. It went to the Court of Appeals, Third Circuit, they really lost. A conservative judge of the Third Circuit wrote a devastating opinion for them, for the anti's. I was out here already teaching and long gone before it went to litigation. They didn't give a ... They tried to get the Supreme Court, Supreme Court rebuffed it. They took it to Congress. They spread the whole thing, the whole Philadelphia Plan, they're supporting [inaudible], but the District Court opinion, the Court of Appeals' opinion, and by this time, I think the law suit came outta Boston with an attempt to get Congress to prohibit any affirmative action.
[08:14:54] In the '71, '72 amendments to Title VII ... I think the ErvinAmendment, rather, not only got rejected, the one they passed, I wouldn't have drafted that. It is so broad in terms of what it, in fact, empowers them to do with it. You've guys have gotta be kidding. What a way to lose, right? Not only you didn't get your restriction, you empowered these people under certain circumstances to take their contracts without a hearing. I think that's suspect, maybe.
WEISBERGER: [08:15:33] It passed.
JONES JR.: [08:15:36] But, that's what Congress said so ... I mean, I'm sure ifI were the [inaudible] CC guy, if I wanted to maximize my stuff, I said, "Congress says I can do this, they approved the plan." You have, as Alan Bradley has, absolutely refused to comply with any of it, right?
WEISBERGER: [08:16:00] Right.
JONES JR.: [08:16:00] That means that I can take your contracts, and I don'thave to go through that kind of hearing process I did the first time I tried to take your contract. Congress says so. Anyway, so, that was the end of that. That's the last major assignment I did under the Nixon administration, the Philadelphia Plan. I did something else with John Dunlap. It had to do with the construction industry cooperation. It's a Presidential Executive Order. It's kinda funny. Went to the Bureau with the budget, and there were 12 of us there from the Labor Department and 11 other agencies, including the Justice Department, and everybody was opposed to this Executive Order but me. I'm sitting there, I started listening to a young professor from Michigan who was the Assistant Attorney General for something or other, Tom [inaudible], and he was talking about, "There's not authority and no enforcement." I'm sitting there saying, "Yeah. That's right." I didn't have to pull out, say, "And this is what the President wanted." John Dunlop was his spokesperson, and I wrote it the way they said they wrote it.
WEISBERGER: [08:17:13] They way they wanted it.
JONES JR.: [08:17:14] And so, it's gonna go in there and nobody's gonnachallenge it anyway. What the hell difference would it make; right? It's symbolism. So, that was my last major one, but that other thing was [crosstalk] ...
WEISBERGER: [08:17:28] While this was going on, were you starting to get yournibbles from the academic world?
JONES JR.: [08:17:33] Yes. As a matter of fact, while this was going on, Isuppose ... I know exactly where. First of all, I got ... Maybe even before this hit the fan. Maybe in the wake of the Alan Bradley stuff and the enforcement stuff since issues there raised the business of the preference and the illegal, but it was a lot of dynamic, and I ... Matter of fact, I made a speech to the Labor Law section of the American Bar Association in Philadelphia. Biggest order. There's 600 people, right, and I'm up there, and I talked about the program, and talked about the rules and confessed the fact that affirmative action was not defined in the rules. It's just restated in the Executive Order. When we litigated the Alan Bradley case, the Quarles and Brady guy had attended that meeting and he quoted me against me in his brief. We won anyway, but that's ... I think we went there, but how, that was the low to the ground, and do the old-fashioned law in action kind of interpretation of provisions.
[08:18:57] But, in the midst of this turmoil, there was so much stuff going onin this first 11 months or so of that administration in its transmission, I get a visit from a young fellow from Michigan. This fellow I had met ultimately who was in town 'cause he was being vetted for an Assistant Attorney General's job. By the way, just met his daughter last month. I was with Ted staying in Atlanta and she's a lawyer. We were in a bar in the Hilton in Chicago, the O'Hare Hilton, and there she was at the next table, and Ted knew her. Anyway, he came to chat with me and raised the question, "Could I be interested in teaching?" So, we had a nice little chat and he went off about this business and said, "I'm gonna invite you to come out." So, I had been invited to Madison by Gerald Somers and Bill Foster. Gerald Somers, the late Gerald Somers, Industrial Relations Director professor, and the late Bill Foster, who had taught me and I guess now, he must've been on the Recruitment Committee, but I don't know that.
[08:20:14] They had me out here to talk to Gerald Somers's course on employmentproblems of the disadvantaged on what was going on in the Executive Order stuff. And in that trip, I spoke to three different classes. I spoke to Nate's class, I spoke to Gerry's, and something, and they ended up sitting on the floor up in the top of the Social Science building with a bunch of graduate students and just sort free exchange between students.
[08:20:47] And when that was all over, Gerry and Bill took me into that backroom. There's a smaller room at the top of Social Science. It looks right out over the great expanse of the lake. It's almost ...
WEISBERGER: [08:21:01] That's your VIP's.
JONES JR.: [08:21:03] It's almost as good as the top of Van Hise. And then theyproposed a visit, "What about taking a leave of absence and come visit for a year, and you could teach in the Law School and Industrial Relations?"
[08:21:26] I'm really a visiting fireman for IR300, which was Gerry's course andit turns out, that course had been funded by the Labor Department, and they didn't have any relevance courses going on and IR had this little special thing. So, I was flattered, and I told them I had never thought of it but can't you see me going back and finishing the brief and my new boss and trying to get things organized so I can run this apparatus where I got these hand grenades I'm sitting on, trying to keep them from exploding in his face and saying, "Oh, by the way, may I go play teacher for a year?"
[08:22:03] So, they started chuckling and saying, "Well, you know, after itsettles down, let's talk." So, I went back to Washington thinking this is the academic version of Washington "let's do lunch." By this time, I'd had a number of assorted "let's do lunch" inquires, kind of getting me outta the feds, one of which might've been different.
[08:22:29] When Robben Fleming left the University of Illinois to come back toMadison to be chancellor, they were looking for a replacement at Illinois for Fleming. And since he had IR heritage, being the first director of the Institute here when it was a non-degree program, and a graduate of this law school, he was, I guess, supporting me and to try to find somebody, a replacement. And he came to Washington visiting at one point, and he told me this story. He came there looking for a person that they had targeted. And when he got through telling people in the Labor Department what they were looking for, they said, "Oh, you mean Jim Jones." And Bob said, "Well, no. I know Jim. It's not Jim." And then somebody said, "Well, if it ain't Jim, it ought to be."
WEISBERGER: [08:23:26] It should be.
JONES JR.: [08:23:29] What he was looking for was Jim Adler who had clerked forthe Supreme Court, not only for the Chief, but he clerked for Whittaker. I think he was like a split clerkship where he stayed an extra year. He had gone through three college degrees and never made anything less than an A. He had two degrees from Princeton, and his law degree from the University of Michigan.
[08:23:55] Anyway, Jim Adler was one of the special assistants to the Secretary,was rattling around the Labor Department during the Kennedy/Johnson administration, along with a kid who was first faculty at Cal Davis, and two other kids. One of them, his father was a judge, and he's a teacher. And another one, who was the Supreme Court Clerk, Ronald Price, was also a teacher. They were all rattling around. Monahan was in there at one time and folks would ...
[08:24:32] Anyway, these lawyers were always sticking their oars in theSolicitor's business, although they did work for the Solicitor. I think Charlie was the one, "Who the hell do they work for?" But, see, the Secretary's a lawyer, a very good lawyer, and it's kinda hard to ... Tom Powers had been the Secretary's exec., Steve Schuman, and all these people with tremendous credentials and connections. Well, most of the time, they would try to second guess my lawyering, and I like to say this, "I ate their lunch."
[08:25:08] Some of them remained very close in affection. Some of them didn't,were unforgiving because having this stuff, they're trying to tear apart somebody that this faceless lawyer from nowhere wrote, and they can't make a dent.
[08:25:24] I remember once, four of us were in there, late at night working onsomething, some dumb memo that I had done under an emergency. Gotta have it last week, and three weeks, four weeks later, it still hadn't gone where it was supposed to. And we were at night, and they were trying to poke holes, and sitting around, and finally, one of them said, "Well, you know, as a practical matter, suppose they ignore it?" And I said, "You just asked me a political decision. That's not my job. You wanna take that up? Take that up with whoever gave me the assignment. What we're talking about is the law, and so far, you have not laid a hand on it." And finally, the discussion got into various sort of things, including the usual curiosity of my background, and I remember being somewhat irate. Didn't often do that on the race matter, but I said, essentially, "With all the background that you guys have, and all the fancy schools and the opportunities you've had to do well, and here you are: It's 11:00 at night and you are working on the same thing I'm working on, and you're trying to second guess me, four to one. I had two weeks to put it together. You've had it for three months." I said, "You're talking about comparative qualifications? You guys can carry my briefcase."
[08:26:59] I saved the bacon on one of them, by the way. He became a lifelongfriend. He still is, but with all his credentials, he was in left field, and rather than let it get out there and pull it out from under him, he came by to chat with me, and I told him, and he wasn't convinced, so I gave him references to go look.
WEISBERGER: [08:27:21] And then he was convinced?
JONES JR.: [08:27:25] He would've looked like the biggest ass in the world. Oneof the world's greatest labor lawyers where he was going with that thing.
[08:27:38] Anyway, so outta the blue, we're talking about I went back toWashington, and I got the visit from Michigan. And then they invited me and Joan out there for a weekend. I knew absolutely nothing about visitations.
WEISBERGER: [08:27:53] Right. And the whole question about the spouse, and thatyou're a package.
JONES JR.: [08:27:57] None of that.
WEISBERGER: [08:27:57] And all the rest.
JONES JR.: [08:27:58] None of that. I knew absolutely nothing. We were out therefor three days, and they picked us up at the airport, gave her an envelope with her agenda, and me a separate one with my agenda, and sometimes we came together. And, at one point, suddenly I was in the middle of a room with a bunch of people sitting back in the shadows, kind of around tables, and me up front, and Ted St. Antoine who was the little man that took me around to visit the various professors. And basically, what this was was a presentation, but nobody told me I was supposed to make one. I had no idea. And what they were nitpicking about was affirmative action. I suppose things were very informant of these, otherwise, I would've thought that Ted and them set me up.
WEISBERGER: [08:28:52] The second tape, side one, and we're continuing how Jimsomehow got intrigued, seduced, anyway into the academic world from his Department of Labor position.
JONES JR.: [08:29:07] At any rate, I had referenced earlier that Bob Fleming,who was on his way back here to be Chancellor, had come to Washington looking for somebody named Jim, and I wasn't the right one, but people suggested when they found out what he was about.
WEISBERGER: [08:29:29] That maybe you were the right one.
JONES JR.: [08:29:33] That maybe I was the right one because ... I don't knowwhether Bob knew that. He knew who I was, but I don't know whether he knew that I had an Industrial Relations graduate degree from the University of Illinois, a law degree from Wisconsin in labor and so forth and so on, so since he had been doing both some IR graduate institute stuff, as well as being the Labor Law Professor at Champagne, I would've been, at least arguably, a match for his background.
WEISBERGER: [08:30:02] A natural.
JONES JR.: [08:30:03] So, that led to Bob coming back, or maybe it was the sametrip, getting together with me for dinner and visiting, a long chat and telling me to send some stuff to a man. I was so naive about it. I didn't have time to stop to send something. So I got some materials that had been part of the legislative bill that I had written and put the package together and I don't know whether ... Well, my emergency dispute article had not yet been published. I think I sent a draft of that along as far as writings. I mean when they asked, "Have you written anything? Have you written it down, have you published anything?" And my course was that, "Not under my name." So, he should have gotten it, but anyway. So, to shorten the story, another member of the Recruitment Committee came to Washington and took me to dinner and we had a great visit, and both Fleming and this fellow seemed to be very enthusiastic. And, now, that was the first inquiry, which seemed to mean more than "let's do lunch."
WEISBERGER: [08:31:22] Right.
JONES JR.: [08:31:23] But by this time, I'm a little bit suspicious of any sortof targeted recruitment since I've surfaced in the Labor Department as being a pretty good lawyer and so other people would want to steal somebody else's token without taking risk, right? A minimal risk, anyway. So, I wasn't preoccupied with it since I never really seriously thought of teaching anything. So, then I got a visit, a request to go to lunch with the Dean of the Law School. And, took me to lunch at Harvey's, up on Connecticut Avenue, and this was in '63, I guess.
[08:32:10] People like me didn't go to Harvey's unless you worked there as awaiter. So, anyway, I had this wonderful lunch with the Dean and his wife. And, I learned something very valuable from that lunch and that is if you're being interviewed about anything and somebody asks you a question, and you never listen to their answer, it's a fraud. He would ask me a question, we got into this emergency dispute stuff. And, he kept talking about Jerre Williams, he used to be labor law movement, federal advance. I think Jerry is dead now anyway, used to be a law professor in Texas. He had written a little piece on the national emergency stuff. And, I say, a little piece. This research document that I had done was an official one-year tome. Wasn't published yet, but he kept asking me and he started talking about something else so I sort of enjoyed my chef's salad on his nickel and said, "Well, this guy was going through the motions. This is a non-starter." So I went on back to happily, to my office. I said, "That's interesting." But I don't even know if they'd have been interested, I wouldn't have gone. I wouldn't ...
WEISBERGER: [08:33:42] Well, that certainly is a clue.
JONES JR.: [08:33:45] Yes, yes. Well, a clue? That's dispositive. They'd alreadydecided. Okay, I give it to you free. Anyway, and then sometimes your colleagues will say something and then they won't bother to listen to the answer and I say mm-hmm (affirmative) ... okay. Well, okay, so fast forward again to the late '60s. I get a call or a contact from Ed Barrett, who's the new Dean for the brand new law school at Cal Davis and Floyd Feeney, who had been one who had clerked for Hugo Black and was in the Labor Department, one of these special assistants that I made a baloob out of and some people other than Supreme Court clerks knew a little something. He was original faculty and they were trying to recruit me to join the faculty. And Barrett came to Washington, sat in my office for couple hours trying to persuade me to ...
WEISBERGER: [08:34:46] I bet he listened to your answers.
JONES JR.: [08:34:48] Oh, well, I listened to him. They were recruiting. Theyweren't persuading, I mean they weren't ...
WEISBERGER: [08:34:55] They didn't need to be persuaded.
JONES JR.: [08:34:56] No, no, that's right.
WEISBERGER: [08:34:57] No.
JONES JR.: [08:34:57] As a matter of fact, so ... Oh, I skipped a beat. I don'tknow whether Barrett got in the act before Wisconsin got me down. Well, we got back from Michigan, I got to thinking about Wisconsin's leave of absence. And having gone through that curious mating dance at Michigan, I said, "I wonder if Wisconsin was trying to tiptoe up on the business of teaching?" So, I called Bill Foster and I told him about -
WEISBERGER: [08:35:31] What you been up to with these other schools.
JONES JR.: [08:35:34] Well, just in Michigan. I don't think Cal Davis had gotteninto the mix then. I told him that we had just come back from a three-day trip to Michigan and these people weren't talking about a visit. They were talking about a career change. And it occurred to me that Wisconsin might be a half step. But, that if I had to go through sorting out a change of my career, I wasn't going to do it but once. So, anybody who was serious about me considering leaving, had better have it on the table when I sit down to go through the pros and cons and make judgements on what I can, and that's not a pleasant process. And I got other things to do than to fool around with who wants to play can we steal your token. I'm going to say it that way, but basically, yeah.
[08:36:41] Bill had apoplexy over the telephone and said, "Don't do it. Nomatter what they say, what Michigan ... Don't do anything." So, I said, "Well, you know, I didn't plan to do anything, but I just wanted ..." Then, Cal Davis came in and, we ain't through yet. I got a call from the Dean of Rutgers Law School at Newark, wanted to know if he could come down and talk to me. He could come down and talk to me, not me come to Rutgers, right? Oh, he was coming to Washington, could he stop by, you know how they sugar-coat it. So, he came down and sat in my office for a good part of an afternoon. These people keeping me from working, right?
WEISBERGER: [08:37:26] Right.
JONES JR.: [08:37:27] And they were recruiting me to come to Rutgers. He told melots of things that people ain't serious don't tell you. He said, "The faculty's split down the middle, at each others' throat on all sorts of stuff. But there's one thing that everybody seems to be agreed on. They would like to get you to join our faculty. So, come up and ..." So, I went up to Rutgers for a visit, for a day. I didn't give a presentation of that stuff like at Michigan, so I'm not this formal like way of doing a visitation. No, I've visited around with various people and ... Well, I guess they knew more about me than ...
[08:38:14] By this time, my law review article on national emergency disputes ispublished. They offered me a tenured position as full professor and 25 percent more money than, ultimately, I took to come to Madison. And the Dean was very clear in explaining, "Say, you know, many schools have this multiple publication of small pieces." He said, "Rutgers, we have a tenure piece. You can publish a lot of them little things. But until you write the definitive work on the subject that you choose, it's not a tenure piece." He said, "And your work is the definitive piece on this subject in the United States that we're aware of." And then he said, "I wouldn't want to be quoted, but better than half of those already on our faculty. So, we wouldn't be lowering anything to get you, and to offer you full professor with tenure is not a gesture. We'd really like to have you here."
[08:39:22] And, but he really didn't go to the next step. I put this togethermyself, so Newark had its first black mayor and Newark was burning. And Al Blumrosen didn't have but one fire hose. They needed somebody else in harness with Al. They were going to throw me out into the community to try to help lots of the problems that were erupting. And Rutgers had a great reputation in the past for hiring lawyers. Clyde Ferguson used to teach at Rutgers. He was a professor.
WEISBERGER: [08:39:52] Do you remember who was the dean then?
JONES JR.: [08:39:55] I can't think of his name.
WEISBERGER: [08:39:56] I'm trying to remember because, for a long time, therewas a dean there who would come from Buffalo, who we knew.
JONES JR.: [08:40:02] It might be the guy, if you think of his name.
WEISBERGER: [08:40:04] Well, names are getting increasingly difficult.
JONES JR.: [08:40:07] You know, he was a long-time dean. He'd been here a longtime. Anyway, so, now I got these four schools in the mix.
WEISBERGER: [08:40:15] Right. And they're all very different. Differentlocations, different faculties.
JONES JR.: [08:40:21] Well, Ed Barrett said, "How can you not come to teach at alaw school with the name of law school named Martin Luther King Hall?" I said, " Well, one of the problems is you got a brand new law school and I don't know anything but labor law. What am I going to do for two years until y'all get a crop that might take some labor law courses or something?
WEISBERGER: [08:40:40] Which is an astute question.
JONES JR.: [08:40:42] Well, anyway, what am I going to teach because I knew whatRutgers had in mind, and I was going to teach labor law, and be dividing it with Al Blumrosen, which would have been an easy thing since Al was one of my great fans and still is. Well, anyway, I never heard from Michigan after the visit. All this is going on and Wisconsin got back on and we came, me and Joan came out here to visit. I didn't make a presentation or that stuff here.
WEISBERGER: [08:41:17] A couple years later, when I was looking for a job in lawschools, Wisconsin was the only school where I was asked to make a substantive presentation. None of the others had that format in the law school. Now, for the rest of the university, yes. If you were being interviewed for the econ department, that's what you probably would be asked to do. But law schools, Wisconsin was really quite unique, in my limited experience.
JONES JR.: [08:41:43] Well, mine was even more limited than yours. It was onlyat Rutgers, I mean at Michigan, I ended up -
WEISBERGER: [08:41:50] Making a presentation.
JONES JR.: [08:41:52] And I don't know whether they would call that apresentation, but see -
WEISBERGER: [08:41:54] Especially, when they don't tell you you're going to make one.
JONES JR.: [08:41:56] Right. But the senior barons, we met with them one on one,junior people met together with more than one person and I guess the others that couldn't make it, they might have assembled then so they could be exposed to them. But it didn't go anywhere. So, I'd been doing this other business with these other schools and some senior law partner for some major New York firm came to Washington to lobby me to go to Cal Davis. I've forgotten who he was ... Ed Barrett and them put on a hardcore press.
[08:42:44] We came out here, me and Joan, and they knew. And then they made anoffer for visiting professor for a year. For visiting professor now, common research, support for the first summer and so forth and so on.
WEISBERGER: [08:43:00] Yeah, what was the understanding because when I came hereas a faculty member, I had also a visiting title, but it was well understood it was not a one-year visiting -
JONES JR.: [08:43:13] No, and mine was, too. Mine was visiting because I had tobe professor because I had to take a pay cut because I was making more money than Brody and Feinsinger. To slot me in, they couldn't do it at assistant, or whatever. They had to ... And it was really a three-year contract. Well, the usual thing to make tenure.
WEISBERGER: [08:43:36] So, when you came, the idea earlier of your coming herefor a real one year visiting and getting leave, that went by the board.
JONES JR.: [08:43:45] Oh no, this was a permanent job offer, this was. You knowwhen I discussed making a change with Larry Silberman, he told me he wouldn't give me leave. I said, "You mean I have to quit." He said yes. Then he said, "I couldn't fill your job with somebody from outside with political clout and you've got it incumbent. And then he says something, which I have no reason to believe he was not serious. He said, "If it doesn't work out, you can always get a job back here. You just couldn't get that job."
[08:44:22] Well, you do all sorts of things by just word of mouth. I rememberwhen Wisconsin made their offer and it was a real offer and so forth, here I was I had a real offer from Wisconsin. I had a raw offer from Rutgers and an offer from Cal Davis. And I haven't heard from Michigan. So, I called up Ted St. Antoine and I said ...
WEISBERGER: [08:44:46] What's going on?
JONES JR.: [08:44:47] That's essentially, I said. No, I told him what was goingon -
WEISBERGER: [08:44:50] No, you told him -
JONES JR.: [08:44:50] I said, "I've got these offers," and I described who, andI said, "and from Wisconsin. And I haven't heard anything from you people in Michigan about what's going on." And then he told me, he said, "What's going on is nothing." He said, "We just got, at the end of your visit ..." He said, "We got notice from a young professor who taught torts last year who, one of two people that teaches four hundred tort students first year courses who quit effective immediately and we've been scrambling, trying to find somebody to fill this" -
WEISBERGER: [08:45:42] Emergency.
JONES JR.: [08:45:43] "Emergency. Since, as you know, the labor thing wasgetting prepared for the fact that Russ Smith was going to retire, but we have no emergency in labor." And then Ted said something that ... Now, A) I'm not so sure that he wasn't giving me the ...
WEISBERGER: [08:46:05] You'll never know.
JONES JR.: [08:46:06] Right, right. But, he said, "But if I were in yourposition, and I got an offer from a first rate law school like Wisconsin, I wouldn't be waiting around to see what Michigan might do in the future." Now, the other thing, Bill Foster evidently had gotten in touch with Ted because Bill, who's a curious guy whom I dearly love, well, he said some things that I wasn't sure what he was saying, whether he was suggesting that I misled him or that Ted said after I misled him. And he called Ted to find out what Michigan was up to. And, it sort of puzzled me a little bit. I don't want nobody saying was I using Michigan against them to get an offer from them or I don't know what he meant. I hope he didn't mean that because if I thought he meant that from the beginning, I wouldn't have come.
WEISBERGER: [08:47:16] No.
JONES JR.: [08:47:18] Because I had a job. I didn't need a God given job -
WEISBERGER: [08:47:18] Right, and you didn't go out looking for these.
JONES JR.: [08:47:23] No, I wasn't looking for any of these. I got recruited. Mywife had a job. We were -
WEISBERGER: [08:47:31] Yeah, you liked Washington, too, didn't you?
JONES JR.: [08:47:34] Well, I didn't know. Washington was a commute, but Itraveled through to get to my job. You read all of the things that happened to us in Washington?
WEISBERGER: [08:47:42] Yes, yes.
JONES JR.: [08:47:45] Well, that isn't a place that make you love it, right?
WEISBERGER: [08:47:45] Right.
JONES JR.: [08:47:46] But, at any rate, she was -
WEISBERGER: [08:47:48] But you were settled.
JONES JR.: [08:47:49] We were set for life. I mean, I don't know from what Isaid ... We were a poster couple for upwardly mobile young black skin making it in the federal government as a career without politics because they're qualified. She's a computer programmer at NASA and he's a GS47, or whatever it is on the career ladder at the Labor Department. You know they've arrived. Set for life. Well, and she already wanted to come out of it and play with her dolls. NASA wouldn't give her a leave of absence so I told her to quit. And that was a decision she could make and we made, but I said, "We'll live on one salary until, you can always get another job in your field. I mean, it's the hardest field in the country. I said, "The only thing is next year you'll have to live on my salary, all them people you got working for you. She had a payroll of about four, I think, at one time. I said, "That won't be covered by our salary, but we can ..."
[08:49:09] So, having decided you're going to change your careers and take ahit, then the rest of it was do you want to roll the dice on something that, right, is not permanent? So, my foolish attitude at that was, "I wasn't born with these jobs." I got where I'd gotten because -
WEISBERGER: [08:49:31] Because you worked hard and you had a lot to give tothose jobs.
JONES JR.: [08:49:34] I got a lot of luck, too, in between, as the timing isvery important. So we can find another jobs. As a question, do you want to try ... Well, visit out here. California was a nonstarter. For me, I wasn't going -
WEISBERGER: [08:49:52] Well, you had a strong argument that if you went toteaching, you want to teach labor law and there wasn't going to be -
JONES JR.: [08:49:57] Right? Well, they could have come up with a lot of otherthings and they didn't. Cal Davis didn't give up, didn't want to be turned down but that's a later story. But the question was, Michigan was out because Ted said, "I'm going to wait around and throw away opportunities if I'm going to think of going to teaching. Don't put it off for another year or so, I might just forget the whole thing." And, as a matter of fact, that's probably true. I'll tell you that story later on. So, Rutgers said that, "Rutgers doesn't have a labor program to offer." The college is down in New Brunswick and they don't have the IR operation in Newark. So I'd just be going to teach law. Furthermore, why the hell move to Rutgers? They just matching my salary. Where we going to live, not sure, not in downtown Newark, so you'd be out in the suburbs. I'd be commuting downtown. Hell, we close to the suburbs, I'm commuting downtown now. That won't provide the kind of academic town environment that is attractive to a young wife with some kids she wants to bring up.
[08:51:21] So that, only 25 percent more money, was not terribly significantbecause we were making a noneconomic decision for her to come out of the market. But see, when you are prudent or cheap, as my wife might translate this, you don't have to make those ... We weren't living from paycheck to paycheck. We were banking one paycheck and living on one. Our freedom fund is in the bank, or in the children's account. So, if it doesn't work, I told her, "You know what this really is? It's a three year contract."
[08:52:03] And, I gather they, if you don't renew, if they don't keep you here,they got to give you a year's notice. So -
WEISBERGER: [08:52:09] So, that's really a four-year. Oh, you mean they give younotice the year before the expiration -
JONES JR.: [08:52:13] They give you notice the end of your second year. It ain'tsix years, it's two threes. It's approximately six. I didn't know any of this. Worst-case analysis is what I do. I say, "Look, I got two years to make the team. Okay? So, why not roll the dice and go try something new for two years? If we go, we going to live then with what we get and if it works, fine, you get back to work when you're ready. If not, I'm on the market looking for a job. Well, since a lot of outfits around Washington have been trying to get me to lead the labor department, at least a couple or three, and these people I've supervised around here, shucks ... There's a job around here somewhere for me if I need to come back and, obviously, you could get one faster than I could, I would think, even though in a year away from the computer stuff, you might be way out of step."
[08:53:24] So, we decided to come to Madison. Took a 50 percent cut in grossincome, so that'll tell you what we think about the real significance of money beyond certain comfort. So, we left Washington Labor Day weekend.
WEISBERGER: [08:53:47] 1969.
JONES JR.: [08:53:49] Driving to Madison. We arrived here on Labor Day andeverybody was on holiday. We had to come out early and bought a house and the lawyer for my house closing was Shirley Abrahamson. Joe Melli was the lawyer for the seller. That's why he wouldn't mine. And my real estate agent was Patrick Lucey. He wouldn't the guy that found the house, but it was his outfit so ... When we drove up to the little place, little shack, in Hilldale, the only person there was Pat, and I'd never met him, and he came out and he said, "You must be the Jones' I'm Patrick Lucey." We shook hands and he said, "got your key right here." And, furniture and everything was in the house and there was a bit of transacting.
[08:54:43] The selling of the house ... I cried when I drove away from thatbeautiful house. But I told Joan, "We're going to buy a house house, because if in two years we got to bail out, it's a house that I'll sell, so exactly this one. It's a four-bedroom split and it's modern '50s. Had more than one owner. But I'll not have any difficulty moving this one. Still, I took a second first on the land. Wish I had of kept it but ... I wouldn't going to have two mortgages, right? Too risk averse. So, that gets us to Madison.
WEISBERGER: [08:55:23] Okay. I think that might be a good place to stop nowbecause you entered Madison in the university community, at an especially hot time in 1969.
JONES JR.: [08:55:34] Yes, but we left Washington and, see, all that business ofMadison's hot time was that you were what? Were you kidding?
WEISBERGER: [08:55:42] Yeah, you're used to hot times.
JONES JR.: [08:55:44] I've been driving through National Guard and stuff likethis for -
WEISBERGER: [08:55:50] Let's start there because I think that that's a veryinteresting point. Because I should have thought about it but I didn't and I'm sure other people will be interested, too, in a way the perils, or at least the experience that you had in Washington, living there, and the fact that coming to Madison wasn't that big a shock because so much was happening here -
JONES JR.: [08:56:13] Honestly, wait, as a matter of fact, it was kind of down... Madison thinks they had a big rumble. D.C., Washington was burning. I was driving through the riots and all that stuff and the March on Washington, we went through that little part of ... The poor folks march came back later that was a violent eruption. The cops were beating heads. All sorts of junk. I had to get acquainted with the National Guard because for my morning run, we'd moved out to a white folks' neighborhood, and it was like, "What's this idiot running down? Oh, that's that guy who works out in [inaudible]. He got to go to work." He'll be back in that little bug driving downtown. So, anyway ...
TURNER: [08:57:02] This concludes the seventh interview of the oral history. Theeighth interview conducted on November first, 2004 begins now.
WEISBERGER: [08:57:11] Today is Monday, November 1st, 2004, and Professor JamesJones and I, June Weisberger, are continuing our conversation. We last talked about how Jim made his decision to come to Wisconsin in 1969, and that's where I'd like to pick up. And I suggested that maybe we talk first about teaching, and maybe including administration in that, and then move either to public service, which of course includes more than the university, or whether you prefer to, as a second topic, talk about research and writing.
JONES JR.: [08:57:52] Well, we can let it unfold the way it would naturallyunfold. I hope we said that, actually, we arrived in Madison on Labor Day. A wife and two kids, to teach labor law. And we met in his real estate office by Patrick Lucey, who went on to become governor of Wisconsin, and we'd been out here before and bought a house. But it hadn't closed. At closing, the lawyer for my closing was Shirley Abrahamson, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court in Wisconsin, and Shirley was a part-time professor at the time. The lawyer for the seller was Joe Melli, reseller. I guess he was one of their clients that Rita would know. Professor Margo Melli has been a longtime professor at the Law School. But, the point I want to make is when I came to Madison, there were only two women on this faculty and both of them were part-timers.
WEISBERGER: [08:59:01] And that was -
JONES JR.: [08:59:03] Margo and Shirley, right. And, of course, I was the firstblack. And, since I had talked about this a little and the people I'm going to talk to tonight, I don't recall any discussion when they were recruiting me about affirmative action. Or that I was the first black. I assume they assumed I knew it, but I'm not so sure. Same thing -
WEISBERGER: [08:59:29] Did you?
JONES JR.: [08:59:29] What?
WEISBERGER: [08:59:30] Did you realize -
JONES JR.: [08:59:31] No, I hadn't. It wasn't something I thought about. Iwouldn't have been surprised. I'd been the first black for so much junk in the Labor Department. As a matter of fact, I was the first black to get a graduate degree in industrial relations from the University of Illinois. I didn't find that out until 1996. Right? When they told me.
[08:59:50] Anyway, but as you said, the attraction to come to teach was toteach. The notion was well, having been supervisor of young lawyers for now over half of my career out there at least, in some fashion, when they talk about teaching, I said, "Well, supervision is kind of like teaching, which is -
WEISBERGER: [09:00:18] It is.
JONES JR.: [09:00:19] Coaching is a type of teaching and whether you got oneperson or 10 or 40, and so on. Maybe it won't be so different." So, I wasn't intimidated by the notion of teaching, though I'd never had a teaching job.
WEISBERGER: [09:00:35] Right, although you'd been a student for many years.
JONES JR.: [09:00:37] Yes, that's for sure. And I suppose for the short sixmonths I was with the pulp, sulfite and paper mill work, because we were the research and education, so occasionally we gave lectures to working trade unionists on a particular subject. One I can remember is how to negotiate a pension and welfare system. We had somebody would come in, there was an action area where they would talk about the realities of -
WEISBERGER: [09:01:11] Right. The nitty-gritty.
JONES JR.: [09:01:11] And then we'd talk about how much per unit and stuff likethat. But that was a short time thing ... My only other teaching experience was when I was an undergraduate, when I used to take classes for my professor, periodically, when he couldn't make it. Anyway, so, they recruited me with the carrot that you come aboard, teach labor law, and teach in the industrial relations graduate program, too, since I came here 25 percent in IR and 75 percent in the Law School.
[09:01:55] Since IR had no tenure line, and a big plus for them was that whatthey put in the L&S IR budget part, one quarter of my salary at law school salary rates, which was a nice bit of money for them up there. And, ultimately, the business of what do you do with the summer, right? When all of this was left open, now they recruited me with this pitch, labor law, blah, blah, blah. Being placed, your mentors were part in the process. Half of the people that hired me taught me. Maybe more than half of the faculty were people that taught me. And, the person at the spear point, and I guess that must have been chair, or whatever of the personnel committee, right, was Bill Foster who had taught me a bunch of courses. No labor, and had been a friend since Bill wasn't that much older than I was. And, as a professor, he was very friendly and outgoing.
[09:03:08] But, I didn't work for him. I worked for Gus Eckhardt. Gus was stillhere. He was [inaudible 09:03:12]. So, it was kind of comforting. I knew these people. I believed what they were telling me. Matter of fact, I'm using up too much of your substantive time, but I remember calling Spence Kimball.
WEISBERGER: [09:03:29] Was he dean then?
JONES JR: [09:03:30] Yeah, he was dean, and I said, "Spence, I'm really sort ofa country lawyer and, before I quit my job with about as much security as you get as a federal employee, at least I'd like to have a piece of paper in my hand that said I have a job at Wisconsin." All of this was just totally verbal, right?
WEISBERGER: [09:03:52] Very informal, mm-hmm (affirmative).
JONES JR: [09:03:53] Now, this might be significant if they tried to kick me outof this office before I'm ready to go because one of the things they told me, heavily, when they were asking me to take a pay cut, right? Said well you know, once you get tenure, you arbitrate, you know, as much as you want to just like Nate and Abner. As a matter of fact, I got the distinct impression that though we get paid, you and I both, modestly, for the arbitration we do, that was considered as part of the service contribution of the labor professors.
WEISBERGER: [09:04:32] I think that's right at least I've had this vagueimpression, too.
JONES JR: [09:04:36] Well, [crosstalk 09:04:37]. They, they were not vague atall about it and say, well, it's expected that you will do, you know, just like your predecessor and since they pay you a little bit of a [inaudible 09:04:48], it's sort of make the reduction in your salary as significant if at all. If they'd gotten an umpireship like Nate did, wouldn't have made it at all, it would have been a big boom.
JONES JR: [09:05:07] And the other thing they talk about, research. Well, youknow, the summer, you can teach summer school if you want to, or you can get some research support. Well, I came here on research. the first semester I didn't teach, but they discovered somewhat to their chagrin, if that's the right word, that they didn't have a Labor Law course to offer, because Nate wasn't about to retire, even though they owed him two years. He had two years of leave time coming.
WEISBERGER: [09:05:38] Because he'd taught overloads
JONES JR: [09:05:40] [crosstalk 09:04:40] and so forth. And he was 68 and themandatory retirement at 70 was still in the law so ... Well nobody I guess checked with Nate, [inaudible 09:05:54] about to go, which was kind of embarrassing and to me, I wasn't about to be hovering around trying to push Nate out the door, like a vulture waiting for him to die [inaudible 09:06:08]. The other thing that Spence said is I'm not going to put you down on the fourth floor with Nate. He will just swallow you up in his empire. I'm going to put you up on top, so you can have, you know, your own independence, et cetera. So anyway ...
WEISBERGER: [09:06:25] And that's how you got this office.
JONES JR.: [09:06:26] Yes, I guess it was vacant. The other thing they said was,you know we have this course that nobody teaches, Protective Labor Legislation. Nate does Labor Relations Law and whatever else he, his dispute settlement thing that he was doing, it was a new course and Abner was half the time in Con Law ... Did he leave Civil Probate? Con Law he was doing I know, and also Labor Relations, he had two sections. So nobody was really doing the protective label, which was fundamental to labor law when I was coming up, and I think Abner and Nate both did the seminar, Collective Bargaining, the negotiation part and the arbitration part.
[09:07:27] So there was this course, and they said, why don't you take theProtective Labor Legislation course, and develop a full Employment Discrimination Law course. There's no such course and to the extent that any of it was touched on, it was a little module, usually had protective labor in it. The old book at least, there was a couple of weeks devoted to FEPC [inaudible 09:07:54] because states ... After the president moved in the forties to establish that little executive order, well they couldn't get a federal law passed, civil rights anything. The states, they loved it, picked up and ran with the idea. Some of the states put together a little, quote, commissions. Wisconsin not being one of them. Wisconsin's statute was wimpy, turns out it wasn't even enforceable, but a lot of northern states, further north, with larger minority populations and cities, got the political pressure to alert the FEPC if there was something, and two weeks I guess was the max, and not even that was offered anymore.
WEISBERGER: [09:08:43] At the time that you came was, did some other Law Schoolsoffer a full blown civil rights course?
JONES JR: [09:08:52] If so, it was the best kept secret in Negro education.
WEISBERGER: [09:08:55] Well you must be right, it just [crosstalk 09:08:56]
JONES JR: [09:08:56] The only thing that anybody knew about was Mike Sovern'slittle book, 66 book [inaudible 09:09:03] and then some of the people who started the poverty law, some of them had modules in the poverty law, but there was no booklet, there was no full course
WEISBERGER: [09:09:19] So you were really starting with a blank slate then.
JONES JR: [09:09:22] Absolutely.
WEISBERGER: [09:09:22] Except you had all your experience
JONES JR: [09:09:26] Uh, you know, two things. The fact that I had been outthere on an island by myself so many times [inaudible 09:09:38], I don't really know how I survived it. I guess ultimately by saying, well, you know, I'm a player they chose me to quarterback this. I assume that they chose me because I'm all they got, right? And if that's so, well, I'll give it my best shot, so [inaudible 09:09:58] a failure, right? Big deal. But I wasn't consumed by ... well I wouldn't say that's not comfortable, but it wasn't paralyzing.
[09:10:08] So having gotten accustomed to being out there, on an island, sort ofmaking it up as you go, that wasn't the big, such a big fright. Fact that I didn't know anything about teaching, and nobody taught you to teach law, you know, how you do this, you know, you sort of look back on your own experience as a student and take what you think was really good and that
WEISBERGER: [09:10:36] And try to avoid it.
JONES JR: [09:10:37] That you hated, right? Unless they got shoved down yourthroat, they're like for the damn exam, that one time you would avoid. So that, that and the fact we said, well okay, since nobody's done this, here I am again, right? And I don't know if I said I had become less enamored, if ever I was I wasn't intimidated by the legal culture, having spent 10 years or so, grew up reading everything you could get your hands on that came out of academia and labor areas, where we were trying to either fix or do for the first time. Right. And having looked at what they offered and added to my attitude as a student ...
[09:11:32] See, I wasn't intimidated by Law School as a student, right? I was anolder student and worked professionally. And so, here I am, said, well you know, I've long since realized that even the sovereign federal government, half the time doesn't know what the hell it's doing. Everything isn't fixed, it's dynamics out there, it's not a chemistry lab or math problems, which we thought they knew all the answers when were students, and they didn't either. So I'd lost that innocence, if that's what you would call it or [crosstalk 09:12:12] maturity, and sufficient confidence to say okay, so it's got to start.
WEISBERGER: [09:12:21] Right.
JONES JR: [09:12:22] You don't expect it to be perfect
WEISBERGER: [09:12:22] If it's not me, who else?
JONES JR: [09:12:25] Well, you know, that's all I got to go with. Then I sat inthis very office and sort of said, how the hell do I do a course on this? And then it occurred to me, I'm as fixed, probably, as able to do this as anybody else. After all, on my watch in Washington, we created all this stuff and the labor department was active, and I was up to my eyebrows in it.
[09:12:57] So what do you do? What do lawyers start with? You sit, you look andsay, well what did we have to work with? And what pieces did we rely on? How do you put the thing, you know? And so, I just sort of started, you know, went back and say, okay, it's 1960.
WEISBERGER: [09:13:18] What was there?
JONES JR: [09:13:20] What was there?
WEISBERGER: [09:13:21] Not much, for anybody.
JONES JR: [09:13:22] Everybody. What did you reach back for? How did you know?So that's how I put ... By the way, you realize that at this time the Supreme Court had not decided one single, substantive case. Duke Power didn't get decided until [crosstalk 09:13:38]
WEISBERGER: [09:13:39] 60, 71.
JONES JR: [09:13:41] And by that time I had taught a full, three credit course.So that's how I got started. And without realizing it, this is where your education kicks in, and you don't know really how it's affected your perceptions. Basically, the first materials, and the ultimate, the book and so forth, was a sort of a legal process approach to it. What else could you do? [crosstalk 09:14:17] But it is a great model, I think. All courses ought to be that way, right? What did you work with, and what was the focus of the problems? What pieces of law, whether made by courts or in the legislature, in different areas, would fit this new animal? And when in fact we did title seven, the reason that the labor department was up to its eyebrows ... It was labor law, some of title six was kind of the stuff that labor department was involved in with its Wagner-Peyser Act, and things like that, so ...
[09:14:56] What were the fundamentals involved in those exercises, that would beuseful for this new one, National Labor Relations Act? They were the labor and history law over there. As you grapple with some of those issues in this new law, we borrowed liberally from existing law, and sincethat was why I got into this because that was my turf, it was like, all right, let's go to the problem. What the government looked at, right? And then, congressional response pieces [inaudible 09:15:34] statute, pieces of the statute that we borrowed from them, what, what are the meanings, what definitions and so forth. The structure that government put in place, right? to deal with it, right? Then the administration and actually the things they did, rules and regulations, if they had any, and what the courts did with them and who were the moving parts, players this litigation process was done in private.
[09:16:10] And then, what do we have that the courts have [inaudible 09:16:15].Look at that process, the business of the usual massaging cases, right? Which left the door open for when the Supreme Court gets in the act, now that we have these court of appeals cases of ... The major ones had something to do with us at the Labor Department anyway and we weren't in Duke, that was outside litigation law.
WEISBERGER: [09:16:45] Were students waiting for something like this, or didthat have to be built up over the years?
JONES JR: [09:16:52] Well now, see this is, I get here in 69. The place was over... One of the reasons I got recruited for the IR, I think, was Jerry Summers had gotten the Labor Department to finance a course on employment problems of the disadvantaged. There was a little bit of funding with the IR for that, that had the employment and unemployment, all that kind of [inaudible 09:17:22]. And the reason that that course was, I understand, fundable, was that the, you know, the students were complaining about the relevance of what the hell they were being taught. So, my course was a new relevance
WEISBERGER: [09:17:31] Very relevant
JONES JR: [09:17:32] and the first ... that spring of 1970 there were 20 or 21students had signed up for
WEISBERGER: [09:17:43] Sight unseen.
JONES JR: [09:17:45] Well, they still brag or complain that my original set ofmaterials was 2000 pages.
WEISBERGER: [09:17:53] They probably do both.
JONES JR: [09:17:59] I haven't really ... There's a set of them over in the LawSchool archives. Every sequence of the material, and each year they were different because you know, the courts [crosstalk 09:18:14] we had to cut it or increase it, and I religiously sent copies of my unpublished teaching materials to the library.
WEISBERGER: [09:18:28] That actually would be a fascinating topic for someadvanced degree research. Do you know of anyone who has done that?
JONES JR: [09:18:35] As matter of fact I threw away two courses when Paula[inaudible 09:18:40] and only woman director of IR evicted the only black. She gave me seven days to vacate my office up here in social science. And all the preliminary materials for Jerry's course, IR 300, I think, started out [inaudible 09:19:03] and by that time the stuff I developed for IR 679, but we're skipping a little bit, was apparent after the first year teaching the employment discrimination course ...
WEISBERGER: [09:19:16] In the Law School.
JONES JR: [09:19:18] We had three young men who went on to get their PhDs in IRwho wanted some EEO stuff, who signed up for that course, which was joint listed as Protective Labor, and after three weeks, they quit. Somewhat later, several IR students, led by Cilla Reesman, a woman PhD, descended on my office, insisted that they ... If they take a 300, they probably take [inaudible 09:19:58 Arthur Breit] and Cilla but I'm getting ahead of the story. [inaudible 09:19:58] got a PhD in Business School with a small business minor, and he took Employment Problems of the Disadvantaged from me. I think Cilla must've taken it from Jerry, she might've been one of Jerry's PhDs, but anyway, Cilla came in the office and said, you know, you've got this course for the lawyers, but the IR people are the front lines.
WEISBERGER: [09:20:24] They need it, too. Even more, that's right.
JONES JR: [09:20:27] Well she made the point, the fabulous point. Said, youknow, with the Industrial Relations, that's before that, it's the organizational and personnel behavior people. It's what's now HR ...
WEISBERGER: [09:20:41] Right, but that was long before the days of labeling inhuman resources ...
JONES JR: [09:20:46] "If they get it right, then the lawyers' jobs are easier,so we ought to have a course. I'm not leaving here with a PhD in Industrial Relations and nothing in the NDO, and you're the only person that can do a course. So, you have to do me a course. " Well, I was sort of shocked.
[09:21:08] So, I had a brilliant idea. I did the course for her, I said, butI mean she is at the PhD level. I said, rather than have you write another, you know, Director of Research, write another paper, I'll tell you what we are going to do. You are going to do directed research, or reading, I don't know how to label it, they have a catchall seminar. I'm going to give you all the law stuff, and what you are going to do is look at it and then go dig up the non-law stuff that addresses the issues that we have in here. And then what you going to do instead of the papers, is an annotated syllabus for our course. The course that you taught yourself and that you think ought to be taught to people like me.
WEISBERGER: [09:21:58] Terrific.
JONES JR: [09:22:01] Well, [Arthur Breit] this other guy. Did the same thing.Not knowing her, it was Business School, but he wanted something too, and I set him off on a similar thing, he had to get stuff from psychology, personnel, whatever he could, and put together what ... And I'm skipping now, but Gerald Lindsay, who was a joint IR/JD student ... He had both degrees and he had taken my Law School course, but he wanted some more, there was so little. So somehow he got in the mix and did some work in there, and lo and behold, students are interesting because one day, all three of them descended on me in my office and said, you got all this stuff, why don't you select from it and offer a course for the non-lawyers, and we will sit the course. Not for credit, but we will take it too, and then afterwards all of us can then assess how it works
WEISBERGER: [09:23:16] Critique it.
JONES JR: [09:23:16] That was great, except now by this time I'm the Director ofthe institute. I'm already teaching half-time. I'm supposed to be half-time, right? And I ended up offering the course. By the way, I didn't know about overload and I taught a three credit course Thursdays from 7:00 to 10:15 at night, with a 15 minute pit stop, and 22 students signed up for it. A lot of them were from downtown, so it was open to people who were working full-time, eligible to take the courses however, they worked back then, and 22 people showed up, by the way.
WEISBERGER: [09:23:59] That must've been a really good, a crackerjack group,because you're getting some real life feedback from people [crosstalk 09:24:07]
JONES JR: [09:24:06] The most of the people were downtown, when it wasn't a[inaudible 09:24:11] course for him to pick up some cheap [crosstalk 09:24:13] Christ, he must be out of his bloody mind. We're going to work that hard one day a week and then this mountain, the paper and so forth that they had, so most of them dropped out, as did most of the students.
WEISBERGER: [09:24:27] When they found out how much work they [crosstalk 09:24:29]
JONES JR: [09:24:29] That dissertation pressure and prelims. Those that hadn'tfinished, the combination, it was too much of a chunk of time.
WEISBERGER: [09:24:43] So it ended until the time you retired, that EEO law wasone of your key parts of your teaching load.
JONES JR: [09:24:52] Actually the six, that IR 666 that we developed with thesestudents that were doing the syllabus, actually the process they [inaudible 09:25:02] between their inputs and mine, we pared down stuff and I put together a set of materials and actually the syllabus and everything, and put it through the approval process and got it its own label. That was IR 679.
WEISBERGER: [09:25:20] When did you finally get to teach labor law, which iswhat you thoght you came to teach?
JONES JR: [09:25:27] After Nate turned 70, he had to get out.
WEISBERGER: [09:25:34] Which is kind of upside of the mandatory retirement rulewhen it applied to the University
JONES JR: [09:25:40] There was a dual upside nature of him teaching. By thistime he had Ellen [Rowe 09:25:46] who was actually his spokesperson, because his, she could understand what he was saying. I couldn't. Hard to tell with Parkinson's, and you know, who's going to push him out of the door?
WEISBERGER: [09:25:58]Right. Now, because I remember when I came here for myinterview in 73, I had dinner with several people and he was one of them, and I found it really quite difficult to understand what he was saying because of his speech.
JONES JR: [09:26:13] She could translate for him. Anyway, and that's about the[inaudible 09:26:18] By this time they had suckered me into running the Institute. See, one way I didn't have courses. I'm half-time for being the Director of the Institute Jim Stern was going to leave, and I ended up being the Director of the Institute. All legitimate, I had a graduate degree in Industrial Relations and had worked ... Matter of fact, I don't know if they realized that for a year and a half, I was head of the federal government's think tank on labor and industrial relations. The office of Labor Management Policy Development. Nobody on the staff was a lawyer but me. Everybody has a PhDs in Economics, Sociology, Master's in Economics and so ...
WEISBERGER: [09:26:57] It certainly makes it very logical that your deepinvolvement over the years [crosstalk 09:27:09] and you had started out.
JONES JR: [09:27:12] I went to Law School, reluctantly instead of a PhD inIndustrial Relations or maybe Economics if I hadn't come to Madison. Since I don't, couldn't get a PhD in Industrial Relations anyplace but Cornell in 1953, and I don't think they had graduated anybody yet. Cornell, I mean MIT, had Industrial Economics. George Schultz was a major professor there, and on a level it was George Schultz' PhD.
[09:27:44] Anyway, we've already referenced them in my class. I overloaded themgoing, but you know, having come from the 80 hour weeks in Washington, there's nothing particularly unusual, I didn't realize [crosstalk 09:28:01]
WEISBERGER: [09:28:00] But not overloads.
JONES JR: [09:28:00] That people didn't work like this in academia. The firstday, that first semester, see, I was on lead, my projects were to develop the teacher materials for this course, and I had three commitments that I've made as associate solicitor, to do papers and professional conferences, which the Law School embraced.
WEISBERGER: [09:28:27] The first tape, a conversation between professor JamesJones and June Weisberger and it's November 1, 2004. Do you want to continue, Jim?
JONES JR: [09:28:39] My first year ... the first semester I came on lead, sothat's the whole semester, right? And then we have summer break, and then you have the ... Is that how it goes?
WEISBERGER: [09:28:59] No, fall semester, then you must've taught.
JONES JR: [09:29:02] I taught the Employment Discrimination course, and theEmployment Problems of the Disadvantaged three credit course and the IR, my spring semester. The following semester, they chased me all over the place with the Administrative Law book. So I've taught Administrative Law for three years. But doing that ... And I had summer support, that they had
WEISBERGER: [09:29:33] That was part of your understanding ...
JONES JR: [09:29:38] From my first year, after that you got the hustle[inaudible 09:29:40] on the support, however it worked out. But anyway, after my first year they rushed me to tenure. I published three articles and the teaching materials, and taught [inaudible 09:29:59] The first semester I was here, I taught, I made 45 guest lecture appearances.
WEISBERGER: [09:30:09] You're right. This is where public service and researchand teaching all can combine.
JONES JR: [09:30:15] As a practical matter, by this 45 was on campus, mostly. Iwas all over as a guest lecturer for various courses.
WEISBERGER: [09:30:16] As you still continue to do.
JONES JR: [09:30:16] A little bit I'm stuck with, but ... So I had taught halftime as a practical matter, but my great good luck or good sense, I didn't give talks on stuff I wasn't working on. So I passed this on to young people as a sort of mentor and scholar, the business of synergy. I researched what I taught, you asked me to give a talk. It was on the subject that I was already working on. I was likely to say yes because I would look up a talk, and I taught like this one here. I was always prepared. By the time I gave three presentations on the same topic that I had to look through and footnote, etc, and I'm ready to pitch to somebody for an article.
[09:31:22] The first two were accidents. Southwest Legal Foundation, continuinglegal education, it's the grandmother of legal education. Well established, and all sorts of programs, very prestigious programs, they published this stuff. Well, they asked me to do a paper, to be on a program, and somebody screwed up. This was one of their major labor conferences, they still do it because they had this system that one person would do a major thing and then two people would do minor pieces. Not on that paper but on the related pieces, that would make sense. Not like you do the paper and we do the comments, but see you have to have your paper first before we can do the comments, right?
[09:32:22] But the way they had organized is you'd do the paper and then theywould cut out a couple of sub topics, so that we would be working at the same time, right? Because they, you know, these things, they publish the book and the people who do the major paper get, they get cuff links or something. No, they get a fountain pen [inaudible 09:32:46] And this old codger, they never paid anybody to do it. Somebody finally said, well, it's an honor for them to be invited to do it, you know, [inaudible 09:32:55] and so forth. Well, Bill [Wurtz 09:32:57] was on the program, or one of the programs, and I was on and Tom Harrison was counsel then, AFL CIO, and Bill Gould who was a rising young star, and we were on the program, all of us on the same program.
[09:33:18] Anyway, somebody screwed up the invitations and had asked two peopleto do two majors, and I understood. So I had done this ...
WEISBERGER: [09:33:30] Real preparation.
JONES JR: [09:33:32] Look, I had a humongous speech, right? When they had uh oh,you were supposed to do the smaller thing on, right? Somebody else was doing the big one, right? And we are so sorry ... I said, well you know, no problem. I just took what I had done for the major one and pitched it to the Wisconsin Law Review and did the minor. So the major one is the bugaboo of employment quotas, and it's the basic, the fundamental piece on Philadelphia Plan Revised and really started the quota fight, the last thing they talked about doing under the Nixon Administration.
[09:34:21] Well, I told them I put the whole thing together, the process as wellas the law, which we'd already done some things I couldn't previously disclose and ... When we hear about it, right, the litigation challenging it came ... I was already out here when they attack it, et cetera. 40 years later, I'm looking like a bloody genius since they haven't laid a glove on it. All this flack about the constitutionality, and so you can imagine ... That was my first, quote, scholarly piece.
[09:35:01] The other one was a little thing and that's in 1970, Southwest LegalFoundation publication. The other one I believe was in the Georgia Law Review, the Atlanta bar and the State of, the Law School in Georgia, for the first time in history, hosted the program that was going to be integrated. Blacks were ... Me and Howard Jenkins was on the program and I was on the program, and I believe Jack Greenberg, and it was the worst storm that's hit ... I got there after traveling all night, no food on the plane. The only thing they would have given away, liquor. So I had more than my share of liquor, t least my share. When we got there, with a cup of coffee and tomato juice, showered and shaved and change of clothes
WEISBERGER: [09:36:01] And you're on.
JONES JR: [09:36:03] doing the program. And they took, they say, oh by theway, we're short of time, and said we've got to put more people on, so it won't be that 40 minutes for you to do your presentation. You've got 20 minutes.
WEISBERGER: [09:36:15] Uh oh, think fast.
JONES JR: [09:36:16] I had to ad lib, right? Sort of ad lib real quick.
WEISBERGER: [09:36:20] What are you going to dump and what are you going to keep?
JONES JR: [09:36:26] And I believe that's the dawning of the age of enforcement.The one at the Southwest Legal Foundation, [inaudible 09:36:35] I didn't think it's relevant. Maybe in the recitation publication [crosstalk 09:36:44]
WEISBERGER: [09:36:44] Well, I certainly hope that we have a thorough vitae thatwe can file with this.
JONES JR: [09:36:51] I don't know how thorough but, selective publications willhave that, and they have when they were published. But anyway you know ...The other thing, see, I haven't been terribly concerned about this business of tenure. That's how dumb I was about the about the Law School culture and the process. I didn't know ... Didn't factor in. Had it factored in, I wouldn't have come to Wisconsin. I had a full professor with tenure offer from Rutgers was 75, 25% more money for a 10-month year, when the invitation to go, take your two months in the summer and go hustle, or whatever. But anyway, see I had this definitive work on the national emergency dispute provision [inaudible 09:37:51] By this time it was published ...
WEISBERGER: [09:37:57] Which is certainly a good start, because it's such amajor work.
JONES JR: [09:37:58] Well, it is the major work and still is, so the Library ofCongress says, since they picked it up later on and published in the Fifty Most Significant Pieces, Major Stripes. Ludgus who had the tenure piece approach mainly said
WEISBERGER: [09:38:19] That's it.
JONES JR: [09:38:19] It was a hundred and, I don't know, something pages.[inaudible 09:38:24] the article. But he had published prior to that time, what's his name, David [Fellows] 190 page one on collective bargaining like the [inaudible 09:38:35]. But now, you know, briefs are longer than they used to be. At any rate, so in Wisconsin, we're faced with the possibility that I might get part of the way. I think they might have been worried about [Michigan 09:38:51] Nobody just talks about
WEISBERGER: [09:38:54] You ended up by producing so much, having come with sucha major piece and then producing in such quick order, some other very significant pieces, that your case never raised the issue, that really, I'm not too sure what the state is with, which is when you came here, you were already a very experienced lawyer and that you had done a lot of writing in that job, whether it was memos
JONES JR: [09:39:21] But not under my name.
WEISBERGER: [09:39:23] Not under your name, but in fact, you have couldestablish, I'm sure as to what you wrote, including draft legislation, whether that would ever be considered appropriate tenure writings. You didn't need to raise that issue, it turned out.
JONES JR: [09:39:39] I didn't raise any issue at all, since they had what theyadvised me is they put me through the process and was being
WEISBERGER: [09:39:48] And it was all
JONES JR: [09:39:48] It was always already up to par [crosstalk 09:39:52] and Iwas up to my eyebrows in it. That was my first summer and I got all these animals about to eat me alive trying to So, that was nice, but
WEISBERGER: [09:40:07] So tenure was never a real issue, because it was thecircumstances you just describe, produced all this well excepted
JONES JR: [09:40:22] I didn't stop then, I think that I [inaudible 09:40:23]Well I got into the case book stuff, I got into the Labor Law loop and reproduced a book, but you know, they used just some of my two thousand pages and away we went with another adventure, and I got into ... I was always writing something. [inaudible 09:40:49] Interestingly, when I did look back at that process before, I looked at the tenure files, where I label all of the professors. I paid attention very closely, to what we did, but we did, not what we said, but we did in my own head. But interestingly enough, one of the part of the grief after Brody's tenure was the work he did on the Labor Law [inaudible 09:41:22] book case book, one of them first and second case books.
WEISBERGER: [09:41:29] I didn't know that.
JONES JR: [09:41:30] Nobody would know that unless they dug that stuff up at[inaudible 09:41:33] they read my [inaudible 09:41:38] Labor Law in Wisconsin: The First One Hundred Years. I talked about that.
WEISBERGER: [09:41:42] How did you get into supervising clinical legal education students?
JONES JR: [09:41:47] I started
WEISBERGER: [09:41:48] Okay, well, that's a good story I can tell.
JONES JR: [09:41:51] Well, it's fairly simple. The first thing, trying to getsome money from the feds and ultimately, the University wanted too much money. They wanted some 85, 86% or something overhead and EEOC had this little pot of money that they were willing to kind of dole out for projects and I put the proposal through to DILHR. David Rice, who was took my first course and was my first research assistant. He and Bill Martin, Bill Martin is a professor of Labor Law at Hamline and they worked with me on stuff and they were gathering some of the materials for the expanded course until they graduated, but the first clinical was in DILHR. Put together this clinical on Employment Discrimination the students had to have taken my course, in order to and we got some money from the EEOC and David Rice was the staff lawyer in DILHR. Paid with the funds, which came from the feds to supervise the student clinicians in DILHR.
WEISBERGER: [09:43:17] Well that explains how the clinical project got startedthat you were so heavily involved in. Was it immediately accepted at the Law School because I remember years in which the faculty seemed very divided about clinical education.
JONES JR: [09:43:35] I was totally unaware that there was they probablyseem more divided to you than they really were.
WEISBERGER: [09:43:42] That could be
JONES JR: [09:43:43] Clinics were here to stay, they were criminal, all right? Iadded the other outhouse stuff. But the first one was not so total outhouse, because David was not only my student. I had to sign off on his hiring to do this project that came from him. He helped write the proposal. There was five slots for students, each semester. They got half-time pay, whatever they had, out of this federal pot. There were five clinicians who got credit. Clinicians couldn't be paid and those who paid, didn't get credit. They all had taken the course, that was a requirement. In addition to which, when we wrote the proposal, I put in at the urging of [inaudible 09:44:33] a bunch of money at my daily rates, whatever they were, for consulting [crosstalk 09:44:42] Happenstance. Patrick Patterson is graduating from Columbia and worked for, a woman whose name is blanking on me, he went on to become general counsel for Shalala at Health, Education and Welfare. [inaudible 09:45:08] She had a program at Columbia and it was a litigation and Patrick had been one of her students [inaudible 09:45:21] and he was coming here for part-time legal writing job and she wrote me saying "You get this great kid who's knows [inaudible 09:45:31] etc. I hope you will be able to find something"
WEISBERGER: [09:45:34] Appropriate.
JONES JR: [09:45:35] Use his talent. And we looked at the money that was in thisbudget coming from the feds for some consulting that I would do. I thought hell, "there's enough in here to get him half-time, the other half-time for his teaching." So Patrick Patterson and David Rice supervised the students in DILHR, chosen by the Law School because of their expertise in their field. They knew more than anybody down at DILHR and I was nt interested in having the kids go down there to be gophers for people who didn't know a damn thing anyway except [inaudible 09:46:15] So, eventually they stole the money, by the way, and put it in the case process and I put in the program. They wanted me to keep the program. I told them "I'm not about to have my students supervised by people who don't know a damned thing."
WEISBERGER: [09:46:32] But that experience with DILHR and students who weregetting clinical legal education credits really also started a more general labor law clinical with students being elsewhere.
JONES JR: [09:46:47] That was the next step. I actually recruited the peoplefrom the NLRB to teach advanced courses, supposed to be and then I want to be practicing procedures. As adjuncts they would come in. [inaudible 09:47:04] the little money they payed. And we got the best people over there to do the seminar here. And I don't know whether we got the seminar first, or the clinical first, but we came up with the notion "Why don't we develop clinical placement in the NLRB, just to make it " I don't know, they had all this stuff in the prison and so forth. Only difference that they weren't supervised directly by somebody in the Law School. But we came up with this theory and that's what it is. We had this seminar that they would do and that would knit together the clinical pieces under the supervision of a professor. The other thing was an idiot idea that they think you gonna put somebody in an agency with ... Now you gonna put one of us in the agency to supervise them? I said "You guys get real" [crosstalk 09:47:56]
WEISBERGER: [09:47:55] That just doesn't work.
JONES JR: [09:47:56] So, we put them in there and we put them in EEOC. And atone time we had somebody going down to the Solicitor's Labor Office in Chicago, but